Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on June 30, 2014 at 13:05

Well I can open the document and read it through word.  I often switch between Chrome, Firefox or Safari and /or Puffin on my iPad.

I will have to check there may be a limit on text in the text box. I believe you tried to put that in the right place. Have you tried to cut and paste a small section of the text?

Well appears no limit on pasting. There in Whole is your response

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on June 30, 2014 at 13:08

Stephen,
I haven't really TRIED to create convex bevels on knife edges knowing that I can't create flat bevels when free hand sharpening like an EP or WE will. You made a couple of points in the past I have paid attention to. Or at least my impression of your points. In the past my practice has been to create as low a bevel as I thought possible for the use of the given knife to act mainly as thinning the blade. This is the most that can be done prior to actually re-grinding the blade. Then, in addition to my "back-bevel" or whatever we want to call it I'd put an edge-bevel or micro-bevel on the edge to act as the "cutting edge. I started doing this using the EP which is a perfect tool for this method because of the accuracy it can maintain. I recently sent a knife to Murray Carter under his offer to sharpen one knife for free. I'm sure his idea is this offer will get more business. I used the offer for other reasons. I wanted to see and use the edge a known to be superb knife sharpener sharpened to see how it compares to my abilities. I wanted to know where improvement is needed, but I didn't want to find a person to sharpen my knives, which is Mr. Carter's hopes I think. Even though he knew he shouldn't expect sharpening business from me he did advise me on how I could improve my edges. He makes a living making knives, sharpening knives and selling sharpening DVD's. I am grateful for the comments he made on the knife I sent him. I sent him a knife with CPM-M4 steel I free hand sharpened with a back bevel and a micro-bevel as well. My thoughts on the benifit of two bevels (for cutting) is the back bevel will thin the blade and the micro-bevel at a higher angle will strengthen the edge against chipping, rolling, dulling. Most seem to agree with this theory. I was very surprised when Mr. Carter's comments indicate he thinks micro-bevels degrade cutting performance. I had no "exceptions" listed. Exceptions like if the use may chip the steel at the low angle of the back-bevel a micro-bevel should be used. Another exception would be using a micro-bevel will speed up touching up the edge. He seems to picture the entire blade as two sections. Primary bevel which I have always called the "grind" (edge to spine). Then the "primary edge" is what he considers the cutting edge. His primary edge is only one bevel. No back bevel or micro bevel or anything like that. So, one of the most respected knife makers and sharpeners around doesn't worry or care about the other stuff most of the people I've come across (and me) do consider. Micro bevels, back bevels, mirror polishes, all that stuff. Sorry to be so long winded but this fits right in with comments you made in the past regarding convex bevels and also the theory of stroke angle accuracy needing to be more accurate on the higher grit stone. My opinion for some time has been that angle accuracy does need to be more accurate on the higher, finer grit stones than it does on the coarser grits. I'll call 2k average for reference. And I still stand firm on this belief IN THE SHARPENING AND EDGE TESTING LABORATORY. In the real world (sharpening while sitting on my couch lol) however, things are a little less black & white IMO.

After 3 years of using the EP I decided to delv seriously into free hand sharpening a couple of years ago. It's been a real good learning time (and fun) for me. About a month ago I stopped thinking about different bevels and just creating one edge bevel. This is kinda-sorta like using multiple bevels since they are convex. The angle at the top of the bevel is lower than the angle directly on the edge apex. This is going to happen automatically since no one can create a flat bevel when free hand sharpening like you can when using a sharpening system that maintains a very consistent angle. When the goal is to create a perfectly flat bevel it will still end up being a little convex. Now if you want the bevel more convex you can rock the blade through the stroke. But believe me, my bevels are pretty convex now even when I try to keep them as flat as I can. lol So, while I am sharpening the single bevel edge I am hitting the edge apex on some strokes and not on others as you had mentioned. I do have to spend quite a bit more time on the single bevel on the first sharpening to reach the apex but it seems to be worth it. The edge slices very nicely through phone book paper which is normally how I test the edge when sharpening. With the edges I've ended up with recently I completely understand Murray Carter's statement that micro-bevels degrade cutting performance. He is referring to a dramatic, sudden micro-bevel. A convex bevel also has the different angles we have when creating perfectly flat bevels with sudden angle changes. It's just that they are curved and gradual. I've kinda-sorta understood this but doint it is REALLY cool for me. It puts a simpleness back into sharpening that should be there. Seems ironic to feel that way after all the time I've spent trying to get better edges by complicating the situaltion. I'm going to laugh even though I should probably cry. lol I do like the fact that I understand the whole thing more instead of just go through the motions to get a good edge. Being able to sharpen a knife and not understanding (or caring about) the finer points of the process is fine for most people. Most people have work, families, friends and a bunch of other stuff to occupy their time. Here is my situation. After 30 years of marraige wife and I hate each other enough to not spend any more time together then we have to. Not working any more gives me plenty of time to spend learning to sharpen a knife instead of being productive. I'm living the good life we all dream about. lol See what you younger guys have to look forward to. LOL Written in jest of course. :)

Anyway, your ideas and comments have been thought provoking enough to get me experimenting (playing). So thanks for your thoughts. :) I have been really happy with what I'm getting now in regards to knife edges. I've been getting them SHARP ENOUGH for about 40 years. I've been getting them SHARP for about 4 years. I've been getting them REALLY SHARP for 1-2 years. Now I'm getting knives REALLY SHARP with different edge configurations and using different methods and tools. Speaking of tools, my Shapton glass 16k should be here in a couple of weeks. :):):) Long time to wait but the price makes up for it.

Jack

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on June 30, 2014 at 13:09

I have tried smaller sections. Sometimes my paste works but all spaces are removed. Formatting issue I think. Cutting and pasting between applications on my tablet is limited compared to when on my pc using Windows.

Steve Hanner said:

Well I can open the document and read it through word.  I often switch between Chrome, Firefox or Safari and /or Puffin on my iPad.

I will have to check there may be a limit on text in the text box. I believe you tried to put that in the right place. Have you tried to cut and paste a small section of the text?

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on June 30, 2014 at 13:11

OK I was able to copy and paste the whole thing, not sure right now why you can't but I will investigate. In the meantime there you go!

Jack Haskins, Jr. said:

I have tried smaller sections. Sometimes my paste works but all spaces are removed. Formatting issue I think. Cutting and pasting between applications on my tablet is limited compared to when on my pc using Windows.

Steve Hanner said:

Well I can open the document and read it through word.  I often switch between Chrome, Firefox or Safari and /or Puffin on my iPad.

I will have to check there may be a limit on text in the text box. I believe you tried to put that in the right place. Have you tried to cut and paste a small section of the text?

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on June 30, 2014 at 13:12

I have been successful in the past when writing in a text file instead of Word in Polaris 5 which is what I used this time. I tried to paste the text into a txt file but was unsuccessful. (picture mad face here) lol

Jack Haskins, Jr. said:

I have tried smaller sections. Sometimes my paste works but all spaces are removed. Formatting issue I think. Cutting and pasting between applications on my tablet is limited compared to when on my pc using Windows.

Steve Hanner said:

Well I can open the document and read it through word.  I often switch between Chrome, Firefox or Safari and /or Puffin on my iPad.

I will have to check there may be a limit on text in the text box. I believe you tried to put that in the right place. Have you tried to cut and paste a small section of the text?O

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on June 30, 2014 at 13:16

Thanks Steve.

Permalink Reply by Stephen L. Corley on July 1, 2014 at 8:07

I'm sitting here trying to read everything that has been post in the last few days, but I'm having problems focusing on it. I'm pretty stressed out over work last night. I'll read it all again in a few days and say something important. lol

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on July 1, 2014 at 19:54

OK Stephen, I hope everything is OK and sure wish you had that tablet right about now!

Stephen L. Corley said:

I'm sitting here trying to read everything that has been post in the last few days, but I'm having problems focusing on it. I'm pretty stressed out over work last night. I'll read it all again in a few days and say something important. lol

Permalink Reply by Stephen L. Corley on July 1, 2014 at 21:34

I have learned a lot this past winter. I sharpened my Buck 119 and Case USMC Fighter to 8k and stropped them out only to determine that, on outdoor knives, it isn't needed and in some situations is actually detrimental. There are some green vines that a smooth polished edge will not cut. It just glides across them. Where a toothy edge will bite into them and cut. A scandi grind is in some ways more difficult to sharpen than a small bevel. A straight razor rarely needs honing and your better off not honing unless you absolutely need it. If you're not getting a good shave, you probably need to spend more time on your strop. Convex edges on stones are great when you have the right stones.
It's not rocket science. I think we make it more complex than it actually is. You just have to finish with the stone you are using before moving to the next one, and don't make too big of a jump between grits. That is what it really boils down to. Just find what you are comfortable with.
Back to convex edges. When you are rocking the blade back and forth, some times you reach the apex and sometimes you don't. That is completely fine. You just have to make sure you spend enough time on it to finish the apex before moving to the next grit. After the 8k Shapton GS, strop with a good compound. The compound, to me, is vary important to finishing the edge. If you're not shaving, bare leather is not needed after that.
Just my thoughts.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on July 3, 2014 at 11:04

Stephen,

When it comes to creating convex edges when free-hand sharpening I don't "rock" the blade any more. I don't need to. Even when I do my very best to keep the bevel flat the bevel comes out convex. This is no surprise because no one can create a flat bevel free hand like can be created with an EP or other system. When the people with years of experience can't keep the bevel perfectly flat I know mine are far more convex than theirs. And when I intentionally rock the blade I have to try to focus on how far to rock it. Being able to rock the blade the exact amount is just as impossible (for me) as it is to create a flat bevel. So, what I've decided to do is try my best to keep the bevel as flat as I can. This way, I get just enough "rocking" to hit the apex on some strokes and hit the top of the bevel on others. My target angle is the "middle" of the bevel. I don't try to hit the edge apex at all. It just happens all by itself due to my inaccuracy in maintaining a perfect angle. When I get impatient because I'm not getting to the apex fast enough I'll have the tendency to raise the angle. I have to force myself to BE PATIENT and continue at the same angle until the edge cuts paper or whatever. When it does then it's time to go to the next stone as you said. The most important thing is to keep the patience. It's also the hardest sometimes. Another thing about TRYING TO HIT THE APEX when free hand sharpening is that since there is no such thing as a perfectly consistent stroke, when I TRY to raise the angle just a bit my "target" angle is higher and that means I'm going to hit angles that are higher and lower than my target. That means that I'm going to put an angle on the edge apex that may be higher than I want it. So keeping the stroke angle target in the middle of the bevel I'm working on I'll hit the apex often enough to sharpen it. Also, this can reduce the amount of a burr created on the other side. The only time I raise the angle with the single goal of hitting the apex is when I'm trying to remove the microscopic burrs that I can't feel but I believe they are there. I believe when we have reached the edge apex and can't feel any burrs and the edge is cutting great, there can be (are) extremely small undetectable burrs along the edge. I believe removing them is a big deal when it comes to having better edge retention. When these microscopic burrs snap of during use the edge will not cut as well. We might then think the blade steel doesn't provide good edge retention. But, it's possibly my sharpening ability improving that will give me better edge retention instead of buying a knife with a different blade steel. Blade steel is important but definately not the whole picture. Needless to say my THINKING about the condition of the edge apex goes beyond what I'm able to control. Since I have limited control I'll let my inconsistent strokes hit the apex. This theory is keeping my apex angles lower and burr creation under more control.

What I'm TRYING to say is you are right when you said we end up complicating things instead of keeping them simple. When I complicate things by trying to CONTROL all the different angles within the angle range between the top of the bevel and the apex my inconcistency will go outside the high and low angles. But, when I keep my target in the middle (keeping it simple) I get better results and I get them faster. Counting on my lack of perfection and inconsistency can work for the best. Hope I explained that ok.

About which grit or strop to stop with I'm still somewhat undecided on what I like. Except to say I like smooth edges better for my EDC knives. I have used up to 8k a lot and have had no problems. I also have stopped at 2k and had no problems. I stopped after a DMT coarse grit once and hated that. Far too coarse for an EDC knife for me. But I don't cut a wide variety of stuff either. The vines you mentioned are an example of a wider range of cutting needs. The opposite side of the spectrum (very smooth edges) are not needed either for most cutting needs of EDC knives. Depending on everyday lifestyle of course. Toothy edge? Smooth edge? This is one thing that will differe between different people. But the angle control is something everyone who sharpens needs to get a handle on. How accurate each person want's to be is a personal thing. Like playing guitar. Do I want to be good enough to play a few songs and kill some time? Or do I want to be good enough to not have rocks thrown at me when in public. :) Or do I want to be good enough for people to enjoy listening to me play? In case you wonder how well I play guitar I've gotten pretty good at dodging rocks. :)

Jack

Stephen L. Corley said:

I have learned a lot this past winter. I sharpened my Buck 119 and Case USMC Fighter to 8k and stropped them out only to determine that, on outdoor knives, it isn't needed and in some situations is actually detrimental. There are some green vines that a smooth polished edge will not cut. It just glides across them. Where a toothy edge will bite into them and cut. A scandi grind is in some ways more difficult to sharpen than a small bevel. A straight razor rarely needs honing and your better off not honing unless you absolutely need it. If you're not getting a good shave, you probably need to spend more time on your strop. Convex edges on stones are great when you have the right stones.
It's not rocket science. I think we make it more complex than it actually is. You just have to finish with the stone you are using before moving to the next one, and don't make too big of a jump between grits. That is what it really boils down to. Just find what you are comfortable with.
Back to convex edges. When you are rocking the blade back and forth, some times you reach the apex and sometimes you don't. That is completely fine. You just have to make sure you spend enough time on it to finish the apex before moving to the next grit. After the 8k Shapton GS, strop with a good compound. The compound, to me, is vary important to finishing the edge. If you're not shaving, bare leather is not needed after that.
Just my thoughts.

Permalink Reply by Stephen L. Corley on July 3, 2014 at 14:08

Jack, your guitar playing may be like my singing. I've been compared to dying cats.
Have you tried shaving with your straight razors? I've been using mine for 3 months now. I get good shaves and don't cut myself when I don't rush it. When I rush, I bleed.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on July 4, 2014 at 10:01

Been straight shaving for going on 10 months now. The only shaving I've done that has not been with a razor I honed was with the one I bought that came shave ready. It was a "sight unseen" razor for $41 from whippeddog.com. The edge on it was noticably sharper than the edges I hone. However, I've been getting the edge sharp enough to shave pretty good. The edge just doesn't have that extra crispness that is nice. But I prefer the Boker a friend on the Spyderco forum gave me. It had no handle so I made one for it. It had a few small dings in it also so it needed a bunch of work. One thing I've learned is it's HARD to screw up a knife edge compared to a razor edge when sharpening/honing. :) The edge on a razor is so much more sensitive because of the thinness. Or maybe I would feel the same about a knife edge if it was making contact with my face. lol I can't use a hanging strop. I use the flat ones I use for knives. I use a leather strop with .5 micron CBN then a bare kangaroo strop mounted on glass. Been using the 4k and 8k Shapton glass stones and then the 16k but it is the 1x6" for the EP. I've been having a bad time getting the hang of honing the razor and getting a really good edge. Then I swapped them about a month ago for the fine and ultra-fine Spyderco ceramic stones. With knives I put the Spyderco UF stone at a higher grit than the 8k Shapton glass. Personal opinion. I have the 16k bench stone on order and I should have it in a week or so I think. Looking forward to a larger Shapton glass 16k for the razors. I'm not real happy with the edges on the razors but they do work. More practice. :)

Jack

Stephen L. Corley said:

Jack, your guitar playing may be like my singing. I've been compared to dying cats.
Have you tried shaving with your straight razors? I've been using mine for 3 months now. I get good shaves and don't cut myself when I don't rush it. When I rush, I bleed.

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