Great knife there Rusty,  I really love all that brass .

Eventually I'll either start a discussion on Hobo / Take Apart / Utensil Set  Knives or someone will beat me to the punch.   In any case, Jan asked me to take a look at the Kabar Hobo for her.  After doing so I wrote a blog about the knife as I was too long winded to sum things up in 4000 characters.

The Blog is at : http://iknifecollector.com/profiles/blogs/a-look-a...

Is there a name for this style of knife, I seem to be aquiring a few of them. Most have the blavk plastic handle but same sheath shape ande blade length. There must be a name for this pattern.

Camp Knife Michael Squire. At least that's what they were called when I was in Scouting. 

I'd normally call it a Small Bowie.  Bit it could just as easily be a Bird & Trout,Small Game Hunter, or Camp Knife.  That one looks gorgeous, Michael. Apparently Utica calls it a "Sport Champ"     Colonial call theirs a "Cub Hunter"

I think it bears a lot of names, most are  probably Boy Scout oriented.  It's best described by its function, a camp knife (lower case letters). Made by Imperial, the construction and sheath haven't changed for dozens of years, except the sheath has periodically been supplied as tan or darker brown.  In typical post-1949 Imperial fashion, it has a hollow handle, in this case, plastic.  I got mine in 1963, when I progressed from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts.  I was nine years old, I think.  (Rules and attitudes were a lot more slack back then.)  It had a black handle and a tan sheath.  At a scout meeting that had wood-burning art as a craft, I burned my initials into the back of the sheath.  I still have the knife, though I smashed the still shiny plastic handles and installed stacked-leather and then I shellacked them. I did a bad job of it and I wish I'd left it original.  No rust; it has a good stainless steel blade; as much as I dislike Imperial's decision to adopt hollow handles for their pocketknives, they have always made pretty good blades that usually outlast the usefulness of the knife itself.  I think I have three others now, all look exactly the same...with black plastic handles.

Bryan is correct in that these knives were marketed it toward young men and were often also called a "boys knife" for this reason.  I guess the thought was to  get Junior his own knife so that he could abuse it and not ruin one of mom's kitchen knives or dad's expensive hunting knife.

"Boys Knife" sounds like a good pattern name to me, kind of like the boys rifles of the same era. I have a couple that are the same pattern but seem to nice to have been made for a kid, but there are some boys rofles like that too. so, "Boys Knife/Camp Knife"

hmm, the only reason I hesitate on Bowie is the chapter in Levines book putting down anything after 1880 as not a true bowie, but the rest of America seems to disagree and calls many knives since then a bowie so...

I believe that the portrait you're referring to pictures James' brother, Rezin Bowie, with "the" knife in his belt.  I think I saw this in Knife World Magazine.

I would call that a clip point Sheffield pattern fixed blade.

Well Levine is pretentious.

The thing is Bowie had two different knives--one for the Sandbar Fight and another one for the Alamo.  We know that as the 1st was given to a judge friend and believed to be a Butcher pattern (named after the maker not the profession) and then lost. 

Butcher Pattern

We know Black made a knife for him, whether it was before or after the Sandbar that we don't know and whether Jim, Rezin or Black designed it is also in contention.

The Bowie brothers, after the fight, had many knife designers wanting them to sell their products and henceforth there are a dozen different patterned Bowie knives.

There is no one Bowie pattern especially since NO ONE knows what either knife actually looked like.

What gets me is that there were schools of knife fighting opened up after the Sandbar styed after the "Bowie Technique".  A knife fighter of "such repute" that he only had one fight in his life, which he nearly lost and then of course his supposed deathbed fictional fight to the finish.

To name a few:

Ron Frazier San Francisco (and/or California) Pattern Bowie

Gil Hibben Alamo (Iron Mistress) Bowie

Harvey J. Dean Searles Pattern

Well heres some food for thought,

http://www.historicarkansas.org/collections/knives.aspx?id=56

http://www.historicarkansas.org/knife_gallery/

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/lnb01

"Jim Bowie, American pioneer and hero, and his signature knife. Born in Kentucky, Bowie lived in Louisiana and died at the Alamo."

~~~~~~~~~~**********~~~~~~~~~~**********~~~~~~~~~~

For me, I'll be happy to continue calling just about any large clip point fixed blade knife a Bowie style knife. Regardless of when it was made. Your mileage may vary.

That portrait of Bowie is pure hokum and done decades after his death;

This is the only known portrait done when Bowie was alive C.1820 and before the Sandbar fight (1827) from the Texas Historical Board.

Big problem with the Black (1800-1872) photo--that photo process wasn't invented until 1839 and Black didn't move in with Buzzard until 1842 after receiving facial wounds while recovering from a fever (1835) from William Shaw that nearly completely (and eventually) blinded him.

James Black of Washington, Arkansas, has been a problem for knife collectors from the time that Raymond Thorp wrote the pioneering study Bowie Knife, first published in 1948.  Thorp included the reminiscences of Daniel Webster Jones about Black making a knife for Jim Bowie, then going blind and eventually forgetting his own secret process for tempering steel. Fast on its heels of Bowie Knife came the book (1951), and then the movie, The Iron Mistress (1952), bringing James Black to the masses as a component of the Jim Bowie legend.  In Bowie Knife Black was the inventor of the classic cross-guarded, clipped-pointed bowie, which he made for Jim Bowie.  The Iron Mistress made this role cosmic by having Black forge the blade from a meteorite.   The problem for knife collectors rested in the lack of Black-made knives, or, even, much evidence on Black himself. 

In “The American Arms Collector,” July, 1957, Ben Palmer performed a thoughtful analysis on the Daniel Webster Jones account (1903) of the James Black story.  He pursued evidence for a silversmith in Philadelphia by the name of James Black, but concluded that the artisan listed in 1795 could not be the same person who was born, according to the Jones account, in 1800.  He asked a series of questions, such as where are the knives that Black is supposed to have made? Would he have failed to mark his work?  He concluded that Jones was not old enough to see Black work before his eyesight failed, and that Jones, a “wide eyed little boy” served as an eager audience to “the blind pauper playing the great man.  Later, tales told by a senile old man.  Of such stuff dreams are made, and all too often, History.”

https://www.historicarkansas.org/pdf/RevisitingBlackQuestion.pdf

Hey guys, great conversation and info. Some how Levine and Bowie can always get it going. Ibe always called my Buck 119 a bowie knife so Im on board with the rest of you. Funny that a little Utica Sport Champ knife could start such a good thread. 

Real or npt the picture of James Black is kind of cool.

• Max, I dont have any Bowies from 1880 either but I do have some Shefield bowies from 1890's and I still call them bowies too. Pretty sure they called them bowies when the were new too. 

What drives me nuts is people think large clip pointed blades with cross guards were invented by any of these people.  The pattern predates  both men by at least a couple hundred years and probably even before that.   The knife in America that most likely influenced the the bowie knife was a the Boucan, which was nothing more than a cut down French Cutlass that was used by  French Pig Hunters in the Caribbean.  The pig hunters them selves were deserters from the French navy.  The knife was named after the Boucan, a word which meant smoke, as in smoked meat.  The men were later known as Buccaneers!  As with the Bowie knife, boucan knives really didn't follow a specific pattern.  They were just big knives that could be used to slaughter a pig or kill a man with little or no problem.

I think the true inventor of the Bowie was the newspaper man who called the big knife a Bowie, after that everyone wanted one, but nowbody really knew what it looked like. So really no knife was invented, just a name that covers a generic style of knife. Only much later when it was more refined to the clip point most think of as a bowie did the term realy define a knife pattern. So yea, they didnt invent it, just made a knife and used it.

tobias.. i also believe the spaniards had a short sword that  resembled a large bowie also. with the cross guards and upswept clip blade.

Jeff, I'm sure you are correct.  There were probably  more Spaniards sailors who deserted and chose the life of the Boucan than French sailors, simply because of Spain's conquest of the new world.  And just about every navy used some type of cutlass. 

In any case, the Boucan knife probably owes its legacy to the European Hunting Sword which dates to the 12th century.  These swords were used to dispatch animals after they were ran down and collapsed from exhaustion by a pack of hunting dogs.   (Pretty much the same way the originals Boucans hunted in the Caribbean!)

The hunting swords often featured a hand-guard and a heavy single edged spear point blade somewhere between 15-25 inches long!

And early Hunting swords bear a striking resemblance to the Gladius  which in turn was the Roman version of the Celtic Kladimos.  In short  The Bowie was nothing new.    I think Michael has a valid point.   The Bowie knife was invented by someone who attached Bowie's name to a big bladed knife that had been around for a long, long time!

I actually think the knife that we envision today as a "classic"  Bowie Knife probably came to fruition well after Jim Bowie's death.  (that is, if you think of a knife such as this as Classic Bowie

Speaking of knives that defy patterns:

The Taylor Moonshiner

Sure you can call it a lock-back but...

Im thinking, "finger guilotine" wow. 

I hope it walks softly...

Boucan knives, a form of a gully knife:

* A gully is simply a big knife. It was not usually a fighting knife but could be used as such in a pinch

Hunting swords, a particular pattern, were used during the 17th to 19th century (although can be traced back to the 12th) and were 25" or less in blade.

Blackmore, Howard L., Hunting Weapons from the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century.

Geo. Washington's sword (replica)

Hunting Sword (top)
English
1765-1780
Iron alloy, silver, dyed green ivory. L 76.2, blade 62.2 cm
The George C. Neumann Collection, Valley Forge National Historical Park, VAFO 315

Short Saber (middle)
English
1777-1778
Iron alloy, silver, ivory. L 74.6cm
The George C. Neumann Collection, Valley Forge National Historical Park, VAFO 346

Hanger [Sword] (bottom)
1750-1780
Double edged American blade with British lion head pommel.
Iron alloy and antler. L 72.1, blade 57.4 cm
The George C. Neumann Collection, Valley Forge National Historical Park, VAFO 278

Celtic Sword

Which wasn't a copy of the Gladius but developed on its own.  They have been found in sites that predate the Romans by many years.  The reason all the swords at that time were short was due to the iron working process and poor tempering.

Shlomo, I hope the information on Boucan knives came from this web site

http://pirates.hegewisch.net/pirates.html  specifically this page: http://pirates.hegewisch.net/gully.html

The image shown is actually my art work from way back in 1995 when the page was first made.  Hard to believe my Pirates page it celebrating 20 years on the World Wide Web!

Actually it was the only picture small enough to fit our column width but it linked to that site.  Congrats on 20 years.

Although the terms I had known about with a passing interest in pirates from many years ago when a couple of our daughters got interested in them from Johnny Depp's character--actually just Johnny Depp.

Recommended books:

A History of Pirates: Blood and Thunder on the High Seas by Nigel Cawthorne

Pirates: Predators of the Sea: An Illustrated History

Pirates: The Complete History from 1300 BC to the Present Day both by Dr. Angus Konstam

Ah Captain Jack Sparrow.  Good movies but pretty bad history.  I was contacted by Disney for information on the 3rd installment.   The History Channel also used me for their web site promoting their real Pirates of the Caribbean.   When Disney called I thought for sure I was going to get a cease and desist letter due to the name of my page but they  had no problem.

Tim Powers, the guy who wrote the book, "On Stranger Tides", the book which the 4th POTC was written sent me an advanced copy so I could read and review it.  The book was indeed batter that the movie adaption.

My bibliography for the page is at:

http://pirates.hegewisch.net/pirbibl.html

Lots of good reading if you're into pirate history.  Most of the books were written  well before the POTC movie franchise launched.

Here is a rev war era hunting sword I have, not sure if its German or not.

The sword below was supposedly carried by a soldier in our American Revolution, on our side. 

Tobia I didnt know you were into Pirates too. I followed some wensite afew years ago but it ended, cant remember the name. Im going to have to check yours out. 

Tobias--That Moosnshiner reminds me of a cigar cutter knife I had but the pivot was at the other end.

Jack--You have an Solingen made Argentine Gaucho's "facón caronero" that was carried under the saddle seat as opposed to in the belt.  Primarily a large camp knife

This is one of my Gauchos, a "criollo

Perpina & Porcel (http://www.perpinaporcel.com.ar/) Model 1 Bone handle

There is also Tandil (http://www.knivesoftandil.com/)

Jack, Shlomo, and Michael.  Those are some really nice looking big blades!

Jack- Hate to disagree with Shlomo but your knife is Cuban not Argentinian, I believe.

Weyersberg Hermanos translates in Spanish to Weyersberg Brothers-Weyersberg moved to Solingen-ohligs in 1925 so your knife is of that vintage. It was pretty common practice to mark tang and blade stamps for the Cuban market. In Cuba, they simply call this knife a large Bowie.The helmuted figure on the handle is Athena. Some of these knives also carried the stamp Viva Cuba if carried by a Revolutionary. 

actually... if i am not mistakem.. that knife was made in germany by Weyersberg Brothers, and marked in spanish for export to cuba.. after the spanish american mar caba was a hotspot for alot of things.. before that Weyersberg Brothers was located in soligen germany.

typo... war not mar  ans cuba not caba.   sorry

Sorry for the mix up but the German influence in Argentina threw and that the blades look very similar to the Gaucho knives I've got--but by different makers.

**1) Facón con S de cabo de guampa y hoja de machete.

2, 4, 7, y 8) Facón daga.

3) Facón de plata con S.

**5) Facón caronero de hoja de espada.

6) Cuchillo cabo de madera dura.

www.noroestebonaerense.com.ar

Here is my Argentine Gaucho, the blade is French. 

Well it seems that I wasn't completely wrong as Weyersberg has been in Solingen since 1787 and catered to the Spanish trade quite a bit by providing knives, axes, machetes, farm tools etc. to Mexico, Central and South America, Cuba, The Philippines and Spain itself. 

They did make gaucho knives under their own stamp as well as Argentine machetes under the Corneta brand.

They were mostly supplying the bayonets for the M1889/91/93 Mausers that the Spanish forces used, as well as the South African Boers.

In 1964 they formed with another company Imacasa in El Salvador who in turn created Condor in 2004.

Some amazing info on companies and the moves they have made.  The gaucho knives are very cool!

shlomo, yes.. i believed they were a german company.. and the tang stamps were written in the language they were being exported to. they branched off into three different compamies tho... all in different parts of germany if i am not mistaken. the spanish american war opened up the trade for them to cuba tho.