Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on August 22, 2013 at 8:12

Do you always use stropping (trailing) strokes when using sandpaper?  I was wondering if you put the sandpaper on something hard like a piece of wood it would be more like a stone instead of a soft mouse pad which would be more like a leather strop.  Softer I mean.  I've heard of using the sandpaper system but never tried it.  I have used abrasive film like what comes with an Edge Pro and one thing about it is if you use push strokes you can easily cut the film.  I was wondering if this is a concern with the wet/dry sanddpaper.  Can you use push strokes if you are careful?

Stephen L. Corley said:

Steve when I'm at home, I start with 220 grit, then 600, followed by 1500, wet dry sandpaper. I lay them on a mouse pad or piece of packing foam that I sometimes salvage from work. If I need to sharpen at work, I use 220 grit alum/oxide then 40 micron sanding film followed by 15 micron sanding film. In both cases I use a stropping motion to sharpen. 

To answer your question, will it get them shaving sharp. Yes. It will produce a good shaving edge, even without finishing on a strop. 

As I said I do finish with heavy stropping. I bought a stick of 2x2 and cut it 16" long and rounded off one end for a handle. On each side I use contact cement at attach leather strips that I got from a hobby shop. I went to Lowes and got buffing compounds in 1, 3, 4, and 5. 1 is an emery compound. 5 is a jewelers rouge(sic). 

The difference in an unstropped edge and a stropped edge is noticeable. With testing the sharpness of an unstropped edge on paper, you can hear the knife cut through. When I take the time to properly stop out a knife, you can't hear a sound when cutting paper. In addition, if you look at the paper where it has been cut, the unstropped paper cut will show very fine hairs. In contrast, a properly stropped knife will leave no visible hairs, not even when looked at under a magnifying glass. 

What causes this difference? A 15x-20x magnifying glass will reveal the answer. Even at 1500 grit or 15 micron, honing leaves scratches on the surface of a blade. These scratches work like micro serrations. Instead of slicing through paper, they saw through it. Using a strop and stepping down in the compound will remove almost all of the micro serrations, leaving the cutting edge smooth. In addition, removing all the micro serrations helps the knife to stay sharp longer.

Incase anyone is wondering, laying the paper or film on a mouse pad or piece of packing foam will create a convex edge.

Steve Hanner said:

Stephen is that all you use to get shaving sharp on your knives?

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on August 22, 2013 at 8:21

I agree.

Alexander Noot said:

In my sharpening I've found that anything a big stone can do, a small stone can do just in more time.

The fact that they're not metal plates doesn't really matter since they're still perfectly flat. In fact, that's one of DMT's biggest claims. That ALL their stones are and stay flat.

For someone on a budget I'd still say, get an aligner set. You don't even need to use the aligner. But the three stones included will sharpen anything you want just fine.

Now if you're looking to spend more money that's always possible offcourse. But you don't HAVE to.

Permalink Reply by Stephen L. Corley on August 22, 2013 at 8:54

Jack, with the wet dry sandpaper you can use pushing strokes, if your careful. You would probably do better letting the edge of the paper over hang on the surface and turn down. This would prevent you from cutting into it.

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on August 23, 2013 at 9:48

OK I have tried about every trick in the book but the edges just roll. I believe I have a Parker/Frost knife from possibly the 70'2 or early 80's made in Japan. I can get the knife semi-sharp but nowhere close to usable. I believe the edge is just too thick. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on August 23, 2013 at 10:53

When I was about 10 (1968) my Dad told me carbon steel gets and stays sharp longer but will rust if you don't take care of it (oil).  Stainless steel won't stay sharp as long but doesn't rust as easily.  At that point he left every knife decision (about blade steel) up to me when we would buy a knife for me.  That's all I knew until about 5 years ago. Now there are stainless steels that outperform even the carbon steels of 1968 as I understand it.  So, in the 70's I have no idea what the steel was like. Not one steel compared to another I mean.  I think probably a lot like some of the steels still used today because until I went out of my way to search for and buy knives with better blade steel (6 years ago) all my knives performed about the same regarding sharpening and edge retention. Good thing I have no plan to write a book of my experience in blade steels because I would already be done. lol 

So, it sounds like, in addition to the edge area being too thick the steel on your knife is just a softer steel.  This thought is based on the extensive knowledge (lol)  described above.  Even a thick blade can be sharpened to shave arm hair.  However the edge angles would need to be so high you'd have a hard time chopping a carrot or anything else thicker than a hair.  From the picture I'd suggest thinning the edge at the angle that appears to be in the shadowy area.  Looks like about 1/4 to 3/8" up from the edge.  Keep the bevel as flat as you can (no one can keep it perfectly flat) and as close to the same width along the edge.  Don't even try to touch the very edge with the stone.  Keep the spine close to the stone and use your thumb to control the angle.  Place your thumb on the top of the spine and lay the side of your thumb on the stone at the angle you want.  Then as you stroke the stone it's easier to control the angle based on the pressure you are putting on the stone with your thumb.  That's how I do it anyway.  This requires using "pushing away from you" strokes only.  No strokes by pulling the knife toward you on the stone. No trailing strokes (like stropping) either, not now.  When I decided to use this method it was hard because I was used to holding the knife only with my right hand and pushing for one side of the edge then pulling the knife toward me for the other.  That method makes it harder to keep the angle the same on both sides.  Of course all these different methods are performed either as lousy or skilled as the sharpener has cared to make them through practice.  Or no practice. lol  This re-prodiling will take some time based on the stones you use and the hardness of the blade steel.

My thoughts may not be accurate without seeing the knife of course.  If you want you can send it to me to mess with.  I'm no professional sharpener but enjoy playing with this stuff.  If it would help you be assured I'd enjoy doing this.  Of course getting the thing in good shape yourself is much more "fun".  :)  Hope this helps and good luck.

Steve Hanner said:

OK I have tried about every trick in the book but the edges just roll. I believe I have a Parker/Frost knife from possibly the 70'2 or early 80's made in Japan. I can get the knife semi-sharp but nowhere close to usable. I believe the edge is just too thick. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on August 23, 2013 at 11:52

Thanks Jack I just might do that. It is funny despite the somewhat poor handle, it has the feel of a somewhat hefty knife. the guard is substantial. Its just a shame it was not finished out in something better.(The lion is a dead giveaway to the age I think) 

Absolutely back in late 70's and early 80's we had nowhere near the choice of  steels and that said, Japan at that time was probably a great spot to make knives inexpensively. 

Anyway there may be some hope for it...someday, fully sharpened and fitted with a sheath it might be a fun retro piece!

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on August 23, 2013 at 14:54

Ivars,

That is a great point about the cost involved in the sandpaper method.  Stones last better and cost less per knife to sharpen with

In MemoriamPermalink Reply by Robert Burris on August 24, 2013 at 9:58

Steve, try sharpening the knife backwards. Pass it on the stone, top of the blade first. Still holding your correct angle. This will stop a poor steel from rolling.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on August 24, 2013 at 10:59

I'd like to echo the recommendation for strop man strops.  I don't have one but have seen the site.  Before I saw that particular site I heard the idea and made my own from a 2x2.  I carved a handle at one end, glued leather to 4 sides and applied different compounds.  Mine looks like a home made one with not too much concern for appearance. lol  So after the cost of my material and compounds I probably had as much into mine as the pretty ones you can get from the strop man.  I have made other strops also.  Big ones, little ones, different leathers (cow, horse, kangaroo) and after playing with all of them I use my strop bat most.  Kangroo wasn't a joke.  Without compound it is the BEST material I've used for an ultimate smooth razor razor razor edge on a knife with good blade steel.  Some steels seem to only get so sharp no matter what tools you use.  Anyway, a strop bat for about $35 is a wise investment I think.  I might make another one but make it pretty just for fun.  Need something to do to keep me out of the bars. :)

IvarsDay said:

Hey! Thanks for recommendations! 

About the leather strops! HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!! STROP MAN LEATHER STROPS! Have one and will buy more, because they are the best! About the stones. I have three stones what I use. 

800grit (composit for 3$)

3000grit

4000grit / 6000grit polished arkansas

Two leather strops

Stropman double sided: coarse/fine (compounds)

Own custom made with extra fine compound for finishing polish.

But if honestly than some years a go I was using just a block of wood with sandpapers 600, 1500, 2500 and if I could find 3500 grits + one leather strop and I was getting absolutely the same as with the stones! Just with stones its much cheaper! Sandpapers cost 6$ and you can sharpen just some two - three large knives and than they get unusable. 

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on August 25, 2013 at 15:38

thank you Robert and I did try that method as well, ain't gettin anywhere fast! Lets see wht this knife will do in Jack's hands! Plenty curious about the outcome and maybe he might just hang on to this 70's relic!

Robert Burris said:

Steve, try sharpening the knife backwards. Pass it on the stone, top of the blade first. Still holding your correct angle. This will stop a poor steel from rolling.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on August 29, 2013 at 20:27

Steve, got the knife in the mail today.  Worked on it a bit.

 

 

Click on the link below to view a video.  This is the first time I've put a video on a forum. I wanted it to play here but it opens a photobucket tab.  New to photobucket.  Sorry.

 http://s800.photobucket.com/user/jackknifeh/media/Cuttingvideo_zps1...

I'll get it in the mail back to you in a day or two.

Jack

Steve Hanner said:

thank you Robert and I did try that method as well, ain't gettin anywhere fast! Lets see wht this knife will do in Jack's hands! Plenty curious about the outcome and maybe he might just hang on to this 70's relic!

Robert Burris said:

Steve, try sharpening the knife backwards. Pass it on the stone, top of the blade first. Still holding your correct angle. This will stop a poor steel from rolling.

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on August 29, 2013 at 20:34

Well that sure is sharper than what I could put on it!  What are your thoughts on the knife?

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