Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rob Gregg on April 15, 2014 at 20:04

Thanks and thanks again, Steve! I guess one of the things I like best, is the endless variety.

Steve Hanner said:

Great to see you Rob! And yes these are colorful for sure! Some of the best I have seen.

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Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on April 15, 2014 at 20:39

Those are some great looking toothpicks.  Swirly plastic and large toothpicks really go together!

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Permalink Reply by Rob Gregg on April 15, 2014 at 21:00

Thanks Tobias!

To me, anything and a large toothpick go great together. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on April 15, 2014 at 21:58

Yes and No, Rob.  I know knife companies marketed as the next greatest hot new thing!  But it t was less expensive than some materials such as Pearl which explains why cracked ice became popular as an alternative.  It allowed the common man to own pearl knives.  With the advent of the depression of 1897 and the burgeoning oil market  petroleum and petroleum by-product became more plentiful and there is no doubt that the alure a modern synthetics was strong.  Everyone was looking at the marvels of industrial revolution.   But celluloid and bakelite really took off with WWI when war time necessity forced knife makers to start using synthetics.  Other materials such as Stag became scarce and bone and wood were considered to fragile for the trenches. Thus bakelite, celluloid and other petroleum  based synthetics became obvious alternatives due war time shortages.   Often it is a necessity that drives invention but the depression and the war only fueled the use  of synthetics. The fact that they could be produced in a myriad of colors and styles  added to the allure of the new fangled stuff and increased its popularity.  much of today's celluloid is acrylic. Victorinox's version of celluloid is Cellidor and is very stable.  and Buck's "Phenolic" handles are also a modern stabilized celluloid.

Rob Gregg said:

Actually celluloid and other early plastics were never considered cheap alternatives. They were simply the latest, greatest invention of their time. Millions of everyday items were being produced in these early plastics and knife company's being the smart ones that they were, jumped on the bandwagon. It wasn't cheap or easy to work with these materials either, the fire hazards alone were enough to make any factory owner cringe.

The earliest celluloids were highly unstable, by the time Py-rem-ite came into play, they had somewhat developed it into a much more stable, yet still highly volatile material. You might have noticed that Py-rem-ite has much less tendency to off gas then it's earlier counterparts. Some company's stacked celluloid sheets with spaces between the sheets and allowed it to cure for a spell before using it. These too have much less of a tendency to off gas and/or shrink.

Modern acrylics are much the same in my opinion. They're something new and lots of people like it. So why not use it for knife handles? As far as cost, it is what it is. As soon as some of the new wears off, it'll go down in price, i've already seen it in the acrylics that are available through knife maker supply outlets.

Sorry if I sound a little preachy, i'm certainly not an expert on the chemistry make-up of early plastics. Just someone who has a fondness for them and has been collecting them for a number of years. Here's a handful from the collection. (if I can remember how to do this lol!)

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Permalink Reply by Rob Gregg on April 15, 2014 at 22:38

Well, I guess I respectfully disagree, buddy. I think you're using the term celluloid too generically. True celluloid is created by nitrating cellulose. Cellulose is a plant based compound, not a petroleum based one. Too, nitrocellulose was a common component in making explosives used in the war. True there were shortages of the more common handle materials, but that was brought on more by the lack of production of those materials, then it was by their usage in military related items. The most common materials used in military knives was in fact wood and leather, not that many in bone and stag. Atleast not during the hay day of celluloids.

Like I said before, early celluloid and other early forms of plastic weren't all that cheap or easy to use. I honestly don't think they were ever meant to be low budget alternatives. There was a demand for them in the general public and the manufacturers responded to it. But that's just my opinion.

Tobias Gibson said:

Yes and No, Rob.  I know knife companies marketed as the next greatest hot new thing!  But it t was less expensive than some materials such as Pearl which explains why cracked ice became popular as an alternative.  It allowed the common man to own pearl knives.  With the advent of the depression of 1897 and the burgeoning oil market  petroleum and petroleum by-product became more plentiful and there is no doubt that the alure a modern synthetics was strong.  Everyone was looking at the marvels of industrial revolution.   But celluloid and bakelite really took off with WWI when war time necessity forced knife makers to start using synthetics.  Other materials such as Stag became scarce and bone and wood were considered to fragile for the trenches. Thus bakelite, celluloid and other petroleum  based synthetics became obvious alternatives due war time shortages.   Often it is a necessity that drives invention but the depression and the war only fueled the use  of synthetics. The fact that they could be produced in a myriad of colors and styles  added to the allure of the new fangled stuff and increased its popularity.  much of today's celluloid is acrylic. Victorinox's version of celluloid is Cellidor and is very stable.  and Buck's "Phenolic" handles are also a modern stabilized celluloid.

Rob Gregg said:

Actually celluloid and other early plastics were never considered cheap alternatives. They were simply the latest, greatest invention of their time. Millions of everyday items were being produced in these early plastics and knife company's being the smart ones that they were, jumped on the bandwagon. It wasn't cheap or easy to work with these materials either, the fire hazards alone were enough to make any factory owner cringe.

The earliest celluloids were highly unstable, by the time Py-rem-ite came into play, they had somewhat developed it into a much more stable, yet still highly volatile material. You might have noticed that Py-rem-ite has much less tendency to off gas then it's earlier counterparts. Some company's stacked celluloid sheets with spaces between the sheets and allowed it to cure for a spell before using it. These too have much less of a tendency to off gas and/or shrink.

Modern acrylics are much the same in my opinion. They're something new and lots of people like it. So why not use it for knife handles? As far as cost, it is what it is. As soon as some of the new wears off, it'll go down in price, i've already seen it in the acrylics that are available through knife maker supply outlets.

Sorry if I sound a little preachy, i'm certainly not an expert on the chemistry make-up of early plastics. Just someone who has a fondness for them and has been collecting them for a number of years. Here's a handful from the collection. (if I can remember how to do this lol!)

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Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on April 16, 2014 at 6:09

Rob, I don't think were disagreeing.  I found your comments and very informative and correct.   As for celluloid being plant based. Silly me.  I knew that.  I really need to get more sleep before posting.

 

My point was there were other factors that also contributed to it becoming abundant, with part of that being the scarcity of natural materials due to the World War I.  (Celluloid, of course already had a strong foot hold before the war.), Still the scarcity of other natural materials combined with improved manufacturing methods allowed for celluloid to become a less expensive alternative to stag and bone. Other factors also helped.  For instance the US Knife industry decided to ban the use of tortoise shell in the early 1920s and celluloid became the new tortoise shell alternative. We see similar things happen with ivory as bans on its import/export took place.  Today, other synthetics come along and knife makers are quick to add it to the inventory of handle materials 

Rob Gregg said:

Well, I guess I respectfully disagree, buddy. I think you're using the term celluloid too generically. True celluloid is created by nitrating cellulose. Cellulose is a plant based compound, not a petroleum based one. Too, nitrocellulose was a common component in making explosives used in the war. True there were shortages of the more common handle materials, but that was brought on more by the lack of production of those materials, then it was by their usage in military related items. The most common materials used in military knives was in fact wood and leather, not that many in bone and stag. Atleast not during the hay day of celluloids.

Like I said before, early celluloid and other early forms of plastic weren't all that cheap or easy to use. I honestly don't think they were ever meant to be low budget alternatives. There was a demand for them in the general public and the manufacturers responded to it. But that's just my opinion.

Tobias Gibson said:

Yes and No, Rob.  I know knife companies marketed as the next greatest hot new thing!  But it t was less expensive than some materials such as Pearl which explains why cracked ice became popular as an alternative.  It allowed the common man to own pearl knives.  With the advent of the depression of 1897 and the burgeoning oil market  petroleum and petroleum by-product became more plentiful and there is no doubt that the alure a modern synthetics was strong.  Everyone was looking at the marvels of industrial revolution.   But celluloid and bakelite really took off with WWI when war time necessity forced knife makers to start using synthetics.  Other materials such as Stag became scarce and bone and wood were considered to fragile for the trenches. Thus bakelite, celluloid and other petroleum  based synthetics became obvious alternatives due war time shortages.   Often it is a necessity that drives invention but the depression and the war only fueled the use  of synthetics. The fact that they could be produced in a myriad of colors and styles  added to the allure of the new fangled stuff and increased its popularity.  much of today's celluloid is acrylic. Victorinox's version of celluloid is Cellidor and is very stable.  and Buck's "Phenolic" handles are also a modern stabilized celluloid.

Rob Gregg said:

Actually celluloid and other early plastics were never considered cheap alternatives. They were simply the latest, greatest invention of their time. Millions of everyday items were being produced in these early plastics and knife company's being the smart ones that they were, jumped on the bandwagon. It wasn't cheap or easy to work with these materials either, the fire hazards alone were enough to make any factory owner cringe.

The earliest celluloids were highly unstable, by the time Py-rem-ite came into play, they had somewhat developed it into a much more stable, yet still highly volatile material. You might have noticed that Py-rem-ite has much less tendency to off gas then it's earlier counterparts. Some company's stacked celluloid sheets with spaces between the sheets and allowed it to cure for a spell before using it. These too have much less of a tendency to off gas and/or shrink.

Modern acrylics are much the same in my opinion. They're something new and lots of people like it. So why not use it for knife handles? As far as cost, it is what it is. As soon as some of the new wears off, it'll go down in price, i've already seen it in the acrylics that are available through knife maker supply outlets.

Sorry if I sound a little preachy, i'm certainly not an expert on the chemistry make-up of early plastics. Just someone who has a fondness for them and has been collecting them for a number of years. Here's a handful from the collection. (if I can remember how to do this lol!)

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Permalink Reply by Carl Bradshaw on April 16, 2014 at 7:57

Awesome looking knives! For some reason, the center one really catches my eye.

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Permalink Reply by Rob Gregg on April 16, 2014 at 8:56

There's not much doubt that over time celluloid became a cheaper alternative, but in the beginning and for a long time after, it was mostly public demand that fueled it's use. It was sparkly, shiny, colorful and a lot of people liked that sort of thing and still do. One area that you're absolutely right about, with one exception, is it's use as a cheaper alternative to ivory and tortoise. The exception being that it really didn't have anything to do with bans on the natural materials.

While there had been hit and miss attempts at banning these natural materials for decades, the international community didn't recognize these bans until the early 1970's on tortoise and not until the late 1980's on ivory. Their celluloid counterparts in these cases were indeed cheaper alternatives. Bone and stag, not so much. Celluloid could have been easily used to mock those at any time. There really just didn't seem to be enough demand to do so until later plastics had been developed, Delrin and the like.

I know I probably come across as an advocate for the plastics industry, i'm really not. I just view their use, as not so much economically driven, but as their being one of the modern marvels that found their way to being used on knives. I own knives with nearly every kind of handle material and love them all, I just don't rule out vintage or modern plastics as being just as desirable as the rest. I view materials like dymondwood in the same light, they're just part of the times, some will survive, some won't. And that all has to do with public demand. :-)

In the end, I do agree that the prices aren't really justified with modern plastics, but do think that will change with time.

Hope I haven't offended anyone, like I said, along with just a touch of research, these are all just my personal opinions.

Rob

Tobias Gibson said:

Rob, I don't think were disagreeing.  I found your comments and very informative and correct.   As for celluloid being plant based. Silly me.  I knew that.  I really need to get more sleep before posting.

 

My point was there were other factors that also contributed to it becoming abundant, with part of that being the scarcity of natural materials due to the World War I.  (Celluloid, of course already had a strong foot hold before the war.), Still the scarcity of other natural materials combined with improved manufacturing methods allowed for celluloid to become a less expensive alternative to stag and bone. Other factors also helped.  For instance the US Knife industry decided to ban the use of tortoise shell in the early 1920s and celluloid became the new tortoise shell alternative. We see similar things happen with ivory as bans on its import/export took place.  Today, other synthetics come along and knife makers are quick to add it to the inventory of handle materials 

Rob Gregg said:

Well, I guess I respectfully disagree, buddy. I think you're using the term celluloid too generically. True celluloid is created by nitrating cellulose. Cellulose is a plant based compound, not a petroleum based one. Too, nitrocellulose was a common component in making explosives used in the war. True there were shortages of the more common handle materials, but that was brought on more by the lack of production of those materials, then it was by their usage in military related items. The most common materials used in military knives was in fact wood and leather, not that many in bone and stag. Atleast not during the hay day of celluloids.

Like I said before, early celluloid and other early forms of plastic weren't all that cheap or easy to use. I honestly don't think they were ever meant to be low budget alternatives. There was a demand for them in the general public and the manufacturers responded to it. But that's just my opinion.

Tobias Gibson said:

Yes and No, Rob.  I know knife companies marketed as the next greatest hot new thing!  But it t was less expensive than some materials such as Pearl which explains why cracked ice became popular as an alternative.  It allowed the common man to own pearl knives.  With the advent of the depression of 1897 and the burgeoning oil market  petroleum and petroleum by-product became more plentiful and there is no doubt that the alure a modern synthetics was strong.  Everyone was looking at the marvels of industrial revolution.   But celluloid and bakelite really took off with WWI when war time necessity forced knife makers to start using synthetics.  Other materials such as Stag became scarce and bone and wood were considered to fragile for the trenches. Thus bakelite, celluloid and other petroleum  based synthetics became obvious alternatives due war time shortages.   Often it is a necessity that drives invention but the depression and the war only fueled the use  of synthetics. The fact that they could be produced in a myriad of colors and styles  added to the allure of the new fangled stuff and increased its popularity.  much of today's celluloid is acrylic. Victorinox's version of celluloid is Cellidor and is very stable.  and Buck's "Phenolic" handles are also a modern stabilized celluloid.

Rob Gregg said:

Actually celluloid and other early plastics were never considered cheap alternatives. They were simply the latest, greatest invention of their time. Millions of everyday items were being produced in these early plastics and knife company's being the smart ones that they were, jumped on the bandwagon. It wasn't cheap or easy to work with these materials either, the fire hazards alone were enough to make any factory owner cringe.

The earliest celluloids were highly unstable, by the time Py-rem-ite came into play, they had somewhat developed it into a much more stable, yet still highly volatile material. You might have noticed that Py-rem-ite has much less tendency to off gas then it's earlier counterparts. Some company's stacked celluloid sheets with spaces between the sheets and allowed it to cure for a spell before using it. These too have much less of a tendency to off gas and/or shrink.

Modern acrylics are much the same in my opinion. They're something new and lots of people like it. So why not use it for knife handles? As far as cost, it is what it is. As soon as some of the new wears off, it'll go down in price, i've already seen it in the acrylics that are available through knife maker supply outlets.

Sorry if I sound a little preachy, i'm certainly not an expert on the chemistry make-up of early plastics. Just someone who has a fondness for them and has been collecting them for a number of years. Here's a handful from the collection. (if I can remember how to do this lol!)

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Permalink Reply by Rob Gregg on April 16, 2014 at 8:57

Thanks Carl, I call that one "spider" celluloid. Don't stare at it too long, they'll actually start to move! :-)

Carl Bradshaw said:

Awesome looking knives! For some reason, the center one really catches my eye.

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Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on April 16, 2014 at 10:49

Rob, you also made another interesting observation.  Not all Celluloids were the same.  Some were highly unstable where as other were less likely to gas-out.  Some were much softer than others and/or more prone to cracking

The same is true with the new synthetics out on the market. Not all Micarta is the same.  Nor is all FRNs, pakkawood, etc.  These once very specific trademark name are used loosely to describe a variety of trade materials.   For instance Linen Micarta can be phenolic, epoxy, silicon or melamine resin based.  It is also treated under pressure at different temperatures and all of this will affect the properties of the Micarta. G10 is actually a type of Glass Reinforced Micarta and it do comes in different grades and qualities. This is why you can see these materials often considered high quality and on cheap imports. It is often more important to rely on a trusted manufacturer than assume a handle must be good because it is G10 or Micarta!

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Permalink Reply by Rob Gregg on April 16, 2014 at 11:42

All very true. I call it the "Band-Aid" syndrome. It doesn't matter who made the bandage, even if it's a cheap imitation, folks still tend to refer to them as a "Band-Aid". "Kleenex" is pretty much the same way. Anyone ever ask you to pass them a "Puffs"? :-)

I'm not real big on materials like G10 and Micarta, they are tough as nails and have their place in the knife world, but lack any real pizazz. Great for tactical and military knives, but no eye candy for traditional slipjoints. But even so, to round out a good knife collection, you have to have a few of everything, right? Me, i'd still pick a celluloid handled IKCO or a Py-rem-ite  handled Remington over a Spyderco with G10 any day. My kids and grandkids tell me i'm too old school, but I can live with it.

Rob

Tobias Gibson said:

Rob, you also made another interesting observation.  Not all Celluloids were the same.  Some were highly unstable where as other were less likely to gas-out.  Some were much softer than others and/or more prone to cracking

The same is true with the new synthetics out on the market. Not all Micarta is the same.  Nor is all FRNs, pakkawood, etc.  These once very specific trademark name are used loosely to describe a variety of trade materials.   For instance Linen Micarta can be phenolic, epoxy, silicon or melamine resin based.  It is also treated under pressure at different temperatures and all of this will affect the properties of the Micarta. G10 is actually a type of Glass Reinforced Micarta and it do comes in different grades and qualities. This is why you can see these materials often considered high quality and on cheap imports. It is often more important to rely on a trusted manufacturer than assume a handle must be good because it is G10 or Micarta!

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on April 18, 2014 at 14:48

If you are going to own colorful plastic it might as well look good !! LOL- Some of mine--

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