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Military Knives

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Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on July 15, 2013 at 14:09

Small world, Ken. My brother was stationed in Gelnhausen at the same time I was in Bamberg (80-84) I think he was bridgade S-3 at the time.

Permalink Reply by Ken Spielvogel on July 15, 2013 at 14:14

Tobias, I liked it in Germany. With a name like Spielvogel - I fit right in. Just to fill you in: I served 4 yrs active U.S. Marine Corps, then 8 yrs ARNG as an Infantry officer - loved it, and then 10 yrs ARNG as a Chaplain - loved that also. Total 22 yrs and retired.

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on July 15, 2013 at 16:07

In 1943, the Department of War called for a pocket knife with stainless steel sides. There were also numerous complaints coming from the front regarding soldiers getting debilitating hand wounds caused by the upward cutting lever can-openers used on most pocket knives.

The can opener problem was solved by Michael A Mirando, a Camillus employee who modified the cap-lifter/screwdriver blade into a downward cutting can-opener. (soon afterwards Mirando moved to Imperial and with him went his new can-opener design.)

The new knife debuted in 1944 as the MIL-J-811-D (the J stood for Jackknife, the term most commonly used by the Navy, as these first knives were destined for the Marines.)

The MIL-J were produced by Kingston, a shell company created by Imperial and Ulster in order to fullfill the large Military contract. These knives were the first to feature the stainless slab sides and newly designed safety can-opener. Unique to the first release were the brass liners (Marines had complained about rust issues with the 1942-43 knives that were made with steel liners and springs.) The blade tools and springs remained carbon steel.

The knives were made for the combat theater and were issued at unit level to combat units already serving in the Pacific. No war time production of this first release was issued in the states or made available to the civilian market. The knives can be distinguished by the way the location of the long screwdriver/cap lifter and main blade that fold to the center in between the rear mounted punch and cap lifter, the U.S. Marine Corps stamp on the stainless slabs, the safety can opener and brass liners. The word Kingston or Stephenson may or may appear on the bale of the knife.

Most that survive are in rough shape as they were sent to combat zones and used by marines who were to see combat. You should be leery of any in excellent or mint condition as they may have been rebuilt.

To the left is a 4 Line USA Camillus, center, a 1943 Kingston and right, a 1944 Mil-J Kingston. Note the difference in blade arrangements.

The 4 line Camillus was an early war production with brass liners. The mid year knives, such as the center Kingston has Carbon steel liners, The carbon steel liners led to the knives rusting shut in the humid jungles of the Pacific. Brass liners returned with the introduction of the 1944 Mil-J knife. Note the slender build of the new knife. Soon after the war (1946-7 the knives received Stainless steel blades and liners but retained carbon steel springs. The knives became all stainless steel in the late 1950s or 1960s.

Bottom left, the Camillus 4 line USA (United States Army) knife. Top center, a Kingston made 1943 production knife, and bottom right, a 1944 U.S. Marine Corps Kingston MIL-J knife

Permalink Reply by Ken Spielvogel on July 15, 2013 at 16:15

Very interesting and informative - thanks for the post Tobias. I would like to get my hands on one of those older U.S.Marines knives.The one I have is a newer one 1994.

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on July 16, 2013 at 10:48

On a side note, the so-called Ka-bar or Marine Corps Fighting knife is technically a 1219C2 Combat Knife. The knife was also known as the M2 or Mk2 trench knife as it was designed to replace the Mk1 Trench knife which was officially adopted in 1918 and still remained the main combat knife for U.S forces. The knife was actually designed by Camillus and Camillus was awarded the first military contract for the knife.

While the 1219C2 Combat Knife is often called a Kabar, most of them (even during WWII) were made by Camillus. Since WWII Camillus produced over twice as many 1219C2 Combat Knives for the Military than all other knife makers combined. Today, the contract is held by Ontario.

During WWII, Camillus was the number one producer of 1219C2 Combat Knife with Ka-Bar coming in a distant second.. A principal reason why the the name Ka-Bar stuck is because the Ka-Bar made knives were more prominently stamped and many had a better finish. The most sought after Ka-Bars during the early part of the War in the Pacific were the ones that had red spacers near the cross guard and pommel. The spacing material assisted in keeping the leather washers secure. Because of the better finish and the smaller numbers of Ka-Bars in theater of war, the Marines preferred the Ka-Bar made 1219C2 Combat Knife over other brands.

The Marine Corps adopted the knife as their own and it was has since been called the Marine Corps Fighting knife. The Army did not officially adopt the knife but did provide some to Soldiers due to a shortage of other knives. The Army instead adopted the M-3 Trench knife as a replacement for the M1 Trench knife. The main selling point of the M3 over the M2 was that it required about 30% less steel in its production thus it would be cheaper to make.

Knives were primarily issued to combat troops or troops in a theater of war whose weapon could not mount a bayonet. This means, in theory a cook armed with a pistol was more likely to get a "ka-bar" than a grunt with an M1! In reality, they were more likely carried by Grunt NCOs, and Mortarmen.

The book "With the Old Breed" by Eugene Sledge has some insight on the value Marines placed not only on their Ka-Bar but also the Thompson and M1911a1 Pistol. I highly recommended the book for anyone interested in the War in the Pacific. The Highly Acclaimed TV mini-series is based partly on Sledge's book but quite frankly, as good as the series is, it really doesn't do the book justice.

And as long as I'm recommended books about the Pacific war, you should also check out "Flyboys" by James Bradley. A well written book that, at times, will make your stomach wretch. You will come to an understanding why so many Pacific Veterans had such a hatred for all things Japanese until they day they died.

I think I've meandered enough!

Permalink Reply by Ken Spielvogel on July 16, 2013 at 11:39

Tobias, of the two Camillus Fighting Knives I have - if I remember right I was issued the one in Vietnam - the other one I bought back in the states after my return. That may be wrong as you say the Marines issued the KaBar and mine was Camillus, it may be such a thing as I bought that from someone over there, I can't remember the specifics. I wish I had a KaBar however, I have a friend that has a commemorative USMC KaBar - he want to sell it to me. He buys and sells almost anything. I may end up getting it - its marked KaBar Olean NY. I also wore a M1911 .45 when I drove a Jeep, but it seemed so bulky as it was in a shoulder holster and clanged against my flak Jacket. I would much rather have had a Glock 21 in .45 Cal. Thanks Tobias for all the great Military lore.

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on July 16, 2013 at 21:19

Hi Ken, By the time of the Vietnam War, I'm fairly certain that Camillus was making most if not all of the DOD contracted Marine Corps fighting knives. By this time, "kabar" had become a generic term for the Marine Corps Fighting knife NO matter who made it!

In fact, in my first year of college a Vietnam Vet took a look at my Camillus made Mk2, examined the tang stamp and said "US Camillus. That's the real Kabar. It'll last you forever!"

I recall having many discussion with other people asking why was it called a kabar. A lot of people recalled the "kill a bear" story,and said that Camillus named the knife a K-A-Bar for this reason. Other people I asked thought that Ka-Bar was an old knife company that was bought by Camillus. Dozens of vets and active duties soldiers told me all sorts of reasons why it was a called a ka-bar and none of them had a right answer!

I didn't find the real answer until after I left the Army in 1984! There is a lot of misinformation out there about what is probably the most iconic fighting knife of the U.S. Military.

Permalink Reply by Ken Spielvogel on July 17, 2013 at 3:57

Yes Tobias, I had heard that kill a bear story also. I always called my Camillus Fighting Knife a KaBar.

Permalink Reply by Ken Spielvogel on July 21, 2013 at 23:10

I always carried a Camillus Fighting Knife with my ammo belt, but at times I carried a hunting knife, don't know what kind it was but it was a nice one. One day I was in a crowd and a kid ripped it out of my sheath and took off. The knife I am holding here is that knife.