Robert, why would you do that? There exists whetstones for exactly every type of steel out there, for steel nearly as hard as diamonds or soft like "butter steel".

I'm touching up a stainless set of filet knives right now, very bendy and low carbon purity, simply very soft.

For "regular" whetstones this would indeed be a problem but with the whole spectrum out there you can easily acquire one with a very good hardness (Sigma is my most recommended choice for low-carbon steels) and simply use it like you do with an Arkansas, flex the steel to the max and simply sharpen.

If you don't flex it properly then you will run into problems with keeping the bevel and serration pattern of it completely flush, probably the reason why you prefer India and Arkansas which are very hard compared to a normal whetstone.

A good whetstone like the case with Sigma blows those away in virtually every department though.

That's my experience after having tried both Arkansas and whetstones. I have a whetstone for any type of steel out there regardless of hardness and purity.

If you want to use oil I would suggest synthetic whetstones and then finish with a nice specimen of Charnley forest and some high-viscosity oil. A Charnley finishes at a much finer grit than an Arkansas.

From 15-20k grit for a good specimen, the dark gray and uniform type has the finest particles while the streaky green with red lines is more suited for heavy duty tools, it's still very fine compared to an Arkansas though.

The reason why whetstones will always "win out" against oil stones is because of the reason Mr. Russell pointed out, the Novaculite has an entirely different composition compared to a stone coming from a slate. It's particles will never break down to the same fineness of a good natural slate stone and will thus leave deep serration marks due to the abrading nature.

The result is a "toothier than what it looks like" kind of edge and can be examined with 300x magnification and up, something that really helps you understand the nature of Novaculite compared to the other abrasive out there.

I see Robert, I didn't mean to come off sounding like an ass but I couldn't wrap my mind around how you use whetstones for some knives and oil for others.

Oil stones are very beginner friendly, much more so than any synthetic and perhaps a tiny bit less than premium dollar natural whetstones, but those puppies are more or less only for the professional polisher as they belong to the elite echelon of quality, something like $1000 and above for a rectangular sized at 2lbs.

That is because of the nature of the particles that can withstand the negative impact from larger serrations than what the stone has due to it's extreme hardness. To put it simply, stones with Novaculite can cover a range of grits that a whetstone would probably have to utilize 2-3 different stones for.

The result with a whetstone is faster however but requires more skill with techniques, flatness and all that stuff so I really understand your point of view now, excuse my "insolence" before Robert.

I would be more than happy to assist you in some guerilla-tactics of how to use whetstones for a cheap buck without having to spend premium dollars on heavy duty rubber bases, diamond lapping stones (you can't touch steel with your lapping plate, ever).

What you would have to pay for is the stones themselves, a bucket for keeping water in (if you don't have one) and a nice concrete pavement block if you live out in the bush and not a paved area.

Oh, and a random panel too for making a stone holder, easy to make and I always have mine with me when I'm in the woods.

'tis how I did things before I had saved up enough to afford all the stuff I wanted but couldn't afford :)

I think you will really appreciate whetstones for carbon steels, personally I would say that's where they really shine. The edge you get on carbon steels from a 20k or 30k stone is literally amazing both aesthetically and in performance, albeit about 15k grit is enough for bush knives so it's overkill but it's still nice lol

Hal, I am thinking of getting two Japanese whetstones, which two should I get. A 240X1000 or a 1000X6000 stone. Maybe not even those, your thoughts on it please.

Would some one please define whetstone for me, I am stuck between 1940 and 1965 and really need to know what you are all talking about.

thanks,

ag

@Jan, I'm afraid you're touching an incredibly vast subject. Natural Japanese stones is something that I haven't seen any interest for here at iKC, I would love to help you out but I'm afraid I would -really- have to pick your husbands head on the kind of steel he uses, what he uses it on and so on.

The Japanese has a saying that goes with their stones and that is that the steel is the husband and the stone is the wife, basically meaning that you can't just get anything but more in-depth that each stone is as different as a person and that's something that I realize more and more as I use these natural stones.

In either case I would be happy to help him if he's a woodworker to acquire a really nice finisher, those are the easiest to obtain and are sold rather cheap with uneven sizes while the perfect rectangles can really run your wallet dry.

@Robert, I would really recommend for you either to get a fully customized set in a cooperation together with someone that has experience of what stones are good.

In general, combination stones are almost always of inferior quality compared to the "purebred" stones. The only brand I know puts decent quality on their combination stones is King, but seeing how good Kings regular stones are I still can't recommend it.

There are generally three major brands for knife sharpeners today, Shapton, Sigma and King.

Shapton is an amazing stone, the only drawback of it is that it's quite hard rendering it unforgiving for beginners, this is a plus for some and a minus for some others though. It also has some troubles getting a good hold of heavy alloy blades, Blue steel, D2, ZDP-189 (or Cowry-X, same thing) and the like, if you mainly use steels like those I would have to recommend either a Sigma or King.

Next up is the Sigma, an equally amazing stone but this puppy is utterly devastating for beginners - almost ridiculously hard but it can tackle any type of steel and eats it up in the process. Extremely aggressive, my favorite brand right now but I polish a lot of HRC 64-68 Jap tool steel which you need a stone like this for.

Then we have the King. It is a medium-soft stone with natural particles mixed in. Very forgiving and a great stone for starting out. Has no problems with alloys or carbon steels but on the other hand also lacks the almost space-age cutting ability of the Shapton and Sigma.

It doesn't fall behind too far though and I would hands down recommend this to someone that I know doesn't deal with very hard steels.

I have sets of each three kinds of stones and they all excel at different areas, so what I would really like to do is either get you a customized set for your needs or make a mixed set fully customized only for the sharpening tasks you face (like Sigma or Shapton coarse stones and King mid and finisher).

Feel free to contact me when you're ready to get cracking on your own specialized set, this is the way I was introduced and is the way I introduce people myself now with very good results.

Until then, stay sharp my friends

Absolutely not Robert, I was once myself in the position of a beginner and I have vivid memories of how confusing it was with all the brands claiming their bonding agent and particles are superior and so on.

A huge part about sharpening is also trust, I normally don't bring this up unless I know a crucial moment where either money or time is coming up.

Trust is crucial when trying to teach online since I can't step in and correct your technique or physically show results of different stones.

Those free stones sounds like a good starting point if what you own right now is cheaper no-name brands. My personal opinion of establishing a kit however is to first decide on what type of stones you need judged on your needs (this is where I will come in and we'll solve it together depending on your budget, needs and what kind of results you're looking for).

To explain exactly what the different degrees of whetstones are in a short manner it's something like this; cheaper stones use uneven particle quality, a cheap bonding agent like glue or minerals to get it to harden into a "stone". Basically the results you get will be uneven and the performance will be -very- hampered compared to a "true" stone.

Next is the category of stones I mentioned in my previous post, these are engineered in a way that mimics the tectonic movement of how natural stones are created. They're literally baked and subjected to extreme heat and compression, giving results that are resembling natural stones but instead of how natural stones are (uneven), the particles are uniform in size and you get the latest science in abrading particles yielding a far superior cutting speed and results.

That's why officially even in Japan everyone has stopped using natural coarse stones even for sword polishing. There are some that still use them (like me) but it's accepted now to "sway" from the traditional method of using natural stones and instead use synthetics - because the results they give are more reliable and also cut much, much faster.

That's entirely the result from the new method of producing synthetic stones.

What I'm getting at is that I wish you place trust in my knowledge about whetstones when you get to the point of a purchase because I know most of the differences all the brands have in production method, particle quality, consistency, performance, steel compability and so on.

Good luck on your new venture Robert, if you have any questions you know where to toss them :)

Oh, and please don't feel that you're "out of touch". In Asia the polishing techniques was officially established already at the 13th century with several competing schools.

The way I see it is that mankind has taken a big leap back when it comes to getting the most out of steel, we were actually better at understanding the way an edge functions with it's serrations in relation to the abrading particles used and what it gives.

It may sound crazy but at the middle of the 19'th century in the world of barbers they had already reached single digit micron sizes on their edges and they knew how to perform it reliably.

It goes without saying that it's virtually beyond imagination of reaching that level without a flattening device and microscopes were but a remote dream of scientists.

Yet they managed to achieve results on par with a perfectly flat ~15-20k grit stone. Truly amazing and it was nothing but sheer skills and sharp minds.

In order to be able to have that level of control when sharpening you probably need to spend the better portion of your life sharpening with your hands.

You can only dream about what the men of that time would be able to accomplish with today's discoveries and leaps in science, I'm like a lost lamb without my diamond plates for maintaining the flat surface.

Just an eastern word for whetrock.

That's another way of putting things. I see that they also mention some of the finer oilstones which produce far superior results over an Arkansas.

For some reason no one has been interested in acquiring one here on iKC, I guess it's because of it's scarcity, price and that it doesn't exist in the states.

If you're considering the abrasive nature of Novaculite I would hands down never settle for only an Arkansas but finish with a Charnley Forest due to the deep serrations (grooves) Novaculite leaves, it still does with the Charnley though but much finer and barely noticeable except in 300x magnification and up.

There is no way to use water on a stone loaded with oil, the only way to make it useful for water again is by resurfacing a fresh "face". In other words grind away the contaminated portion of the stone.

Robert, your method is a good idea in practice but I'm afraid there isn't any cleansing solution that is fine enough in particle size to clean and completely evaporate/disappear afterwards from a stone.

In the end it will only add further contamination to the stone.

Regardless of the concentration it will get loaded in the stone and it's effect on steel is documented.

a message for all of the 12 year olds in this group.  Do not use acid of any kind without adult supervision.

A message for the adults that I assume make up this group.  If you do not know how to handle acid with care, learn before you begin to handle the acid.

Sorry Hal, I assumed that this was a group of adults and would not need the above.

Terry,

You could try an automotive brake cleaner.   It's designed to remove the oily residue and evaporate fully.

 I've even used it on photographic lens parts (not the elements) to get them back to a working order.

Russell, you completely missed my point, I couldn't care less if some poor guy spilled hydrochloric acid all over himself.

I have dealt with retailers of stones for a long time and what you might not be aware of is this we have a great number of precious vintage stones that are loaded with oil that people want to use water with today.

These are stones that have been extinct for decades, even centuries and my "take" on the subject is that destroying a historically valuable stone isn't the wisest choice of action.

The retailers specialize in what we are discussing right now and I have never met anyone that used anything but a grinder to resurface a fresh portion of the stone.

Oil will only reach the outer layer of a stone due to it's particle size and it is very feasible to get a completely fresh face of the stone again by simply removing the contaminated portion.

My 2 damn cents. Now go do whatever you want with your stones.

Don,

Hal is right about hydrochloric and muratic beubg tge sane.  Muratic is either a 31 or 60+% solution of hydrochloric.  use in a 10 to 1 with water being the ten.

use outdoors with lots of protection, forget damaging the stone, protect your precious person.

google muratic acid and heed all the warning.

I was in the business of producing and selling Arkansas stones for several years and may know a bit more about them than Hal's retailers.  After cutting the raw stone with diamond saws (in an oil bath) and then polishing them flat on a cast iron plat with silicon carbide we would put them in crocks full of an acid mix and let them soak until they were clean

When we wanted a surface for an eye surgion?  we would lap two stones together  using 25 micron diamond paste.

Russell, my spectrum of stones include every stone with Novaculite.

Hydrochloric acid melts synthetic stones and corrodes steel, is that really what we want to use when removing a thin layer of oil on a stone we want to use water on again?

I stand for my previous statement of simply grinding away the contaminated portion. The mildest and also safest way to get the stone back to functionality with water again.

Russell, you probably know a lot more about Arkansas stones than any of the people I know do and myself included but the same goes for the rest of the Novaculite stones out there and you yourself. I don't know if it's because of the composition of an Arkansas that you can clean them with acid but I have never read or heard anything in either historic documents or in recent years about acid being used to clean oil stones.

I have read mining and preparation documentation from Charnley forest, Turkey stones, Water of Ayr, Tam 'o Shatner and none of them had anything in them about any acids being used.

Hi all,

Maybe you can help me with a problem I have with my Lansky sharpening system, (see image below). 

The clamp on my Lansky sharpener won't grip blades tightly enough to prevent them from slipping out of position during the sharpening process.  Does anyone have any ideas on how I can solve this problem.  (So far, I've tried wrapping the clamp's jaws with electricians tape to improve their grip, but that didn't solve the problem.)  I'll appreciate any suggestions you can give me.  Thanks.

Hi Terry! Take a little contact glue in the clamp " mouth", just a thin nlayer, and on both sides - let it dry.

Now you have a thin layser of "rubber" who protect your blade from scratches . and this "rubber" layer also give you a much better frip on the blade.

Thomas

Don and Robert,

Thanks so much for your very helpful responses to my question.  I think one of my problems is that I have incorrectly sharpened some of my knives and have "rounded" their edges so the edge angle on them is not sharp enough anymore.   Unless I'm wrong, before I can sharpen them really well, the blades have to be "re-profiled" so the edge has a flat-ground bevel of 17 to 20 degrees before it can be sharpened with a stone to a fine edge.  Can this be my problem and the correct solution?  If it is, what is the  best way for me (with my limited skills) to re-profile these blades?   Otherwise, what should I do in these cases?  Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can give me.

Terry, sharpening still isn't working for you? It's a subject that takes practice, if you say your hand-to-eye coordination is off then you have your solution right there or get something like the Apex (which I believe I mentioned to you some one year ago).

I'm closing in on 15 years in the hand-sharpening business and it took me almost a decade of daily practice to learn how to sharpen with "automatic" action as in that I don't have to check where the steel is touching the stone. Don't rush the process, stay off the powertools and get proper stones, not the tiny touch-up kit of a lansky but a proper bench stone the kind that I recommended to you before, the rest is simply practice until your hands do what you want them to do and you can pick up on the subtle feeling of when you have reached the proper angle, the feeling of where the steel touches the stone and how the feedback changes slightly when you have reached a flat.

'nuf said from me, I've given you more advice than I can remember doing for anyone else over the net, if you can't reach your goal with this I'd say you should just get the Apex so your problem of sharpening can be over finally.

Halicon, nice to hear from you!  You're absolutely spot on about practicing.  I really haven't taken the time that I should to become proficient with the stones I bought with your advice.  Thanks for all your help, and I promise to spend more time practicing.  I really don't want to give up and buy the Apex.  Now that I have the stones, I want to make good use of them.  Thanks again.

Just want to let everyone know that I monitor this group daily, so if you need help or have any questions about any form of sharpening feel free to type it out in full and if it's something within my realm I'd love to help anyone out.

That's Hal, I'm sure people will get help from you as time passes.

We need a discussion on knife sharpening, we use to have one. Is there anyone up to the task of making a "Knife Sharpening Discussion"? It could be the basics, using an oil stone, a wet stone and maybe a diamond board.

People are always saying that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. So, I thought, maybe, if I joined this group I could figure out how to get a little sharper?

If ya'll can wait till I get a chance, I may try to give ya'll a few pointers on how I sharpen a knife, free hand. I'm just too busy right now to get it together. It's important that it's explained correctly, that's why it will take me some time to post it.

Steve, you scoff at the idea of push cutting toilet paper. You've obviously never had to field dress a roll of Charmin 2 ply, have you? Unless your knife is razor sharp you run the risk of puncturing the cardboard tube and contaminating the entire roll.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get my tongue out of my cheek.

You know,

I think Robert is on to something   We see a lot about sharpening "systems" out there.  How about those that know the art of getting an edge free hand?

I'm one of those who struggles with freehand sharpening. I can usually get some portion of the edge sharp. Usually the area near the tip of the blade. But all bets are off when it comes to getting a uniform edge over the entire length of the blade. Especially if I'm attempting to sharpen a recurved edge!

So, in light of what I've stated above, for the last year or so I have been using a Spyderco Sharpmaker and achieving a much better result. It's pretty much a foolproof system since the ceramic stones are set at predetermined angles - 30 or 40 degrees. I just hold the blade straight up and down and draw it down and across the rods/stones. Voila!

I think there is an aspect to sharpening that doesn't get enough attention and that is stropping. I have discovered that once I get a good edge on a blade it's really rarely necessary to return to the stones unless I've either damaged the edge or tremendously dulled it by cutting some particularly difficult substance. During normal use I can usually get my edge back on a leather strop. Sometimes I will use stropping compounds. But not often. I usually just use jewelers rouge or bare leather.

This is a great topic, though. I only wish I had the skills to get that killer edge freehand. Sadly I don't. *sigh* I also wish I had a spare 4 to 5 hundred bucks laying around that I could shuck out for a Wicked Edge or Edge Pro sharpening system. Sadly I don't have that either. *even bigger sigh* Oh, well!

Yep! I've used newspaper to strop a blade before. In a pinch I've also used cardboard.