I have been watching videos on freehand sharpening, wow there are some "different" techniques out there.  If I find a good one I will bring it over for you to see but so far I have just seen parts of each that are good LOL

I have been using ez-lap diamond stones for a few years and have had real good luck with them. It took a lot of practice to learn how to do it free hand. I have noticed lately that when I start to get tired my hands start to shake. Parkinson's runs in the family. Seems like I can get them almost to the edge that I want and my hands shake and I knock it off. It's very frustrating. So I was looking on the net today and discovered that ez-lap has a sharpening system that might help. Has anyone tried one? 

You make a good argument for mechanical sharping and it's true a lot of people are better off with this type of method. I am sure you must not have heard of blade polishing and sharpening and people that can polish a blade free hand after years of experience. The sharpest blades I have ever seen were all Free Hand. I am not able to explain it correctly but I'll try get one of our members to explain it a lot better than I can. Please understand, I am not trying to be argumentative, just enjoying a good discussion, on different opinions.

Hi Robert,

This painting is from the dark ages and show how some sword grinders polish a sword. This picture is about 5-600 hundred years old- and they use a “sharpening tool” to do the work.

[IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img14/983/5y13.jpg[/IMG]

Polishing edges is not a new thing J,

By the way, I have sharpened edged tools for about 55 years now, the first 40 years by free hand.

I discuss (argue) with you if you like, I also enjoy a good positive discussion.

Thomas

Hey Thomas, I couldn't get the link either.

      You have a well educated discussion going and it's  very interesting. I have tried a few gadget sharpeners and they worked fine to a point. [ Lanskey] I sharpen knives for a lot of people and the tools I use are "oil stones, water stones [Japan] and a strop, some times a diamond block.

       Thanks for your reply, I would love to see vintage knife sharpening devises. You may get it on some other way.

        This group has been inactive for a while, I was just trying to keep the discussions going. I forgot to thank you for a well written Comment. Thanks

Just now joined the knife sharpeners group.  I have become passionate about sharpening knives in the past few years.  All my life I've been able to get my pocket knives sharp enough to shave my arm and I thought that was sharp.  I've gotten way past that and am still learning.

Steve,

Right now I use an Edge Pro for  reprofiling but for the final edge and touch ups I free hand.  I have DMT stones and a Spyderco fine grit bench stone.  I want a spyderco Ultra fine stone but don't need it.  However, the wants usually win out over the needs. :)  The stones I love most are Shapton glass as far as performance, feel, etc.  They are the only stones I've used that will leave a mirror finish without stropping.  The 8k is the beginning of the mirror finish grits.  I prefera a coarser grit micro bevel for the edge on EDC knives.  I have the Shapton Glass stones for the EP so if I want a mirror finish I use them then free hand for the final edge.  I can bet better results for the final edge free hand.  The EP is very good but IMO you get a better "feel" free hand.

Thanks, Thomas, I guess I have not mastered the Lansky. I am sure they are a lot more accurate than my old cripple arms. I am sure, your info is being read by other members, they are just remaining silent. The more that our members are able to sharpen their knives, the more they will enjoy them.

   I hope we can keep this group active. The old timers and experts at sharpening should remember, "there is a lot of members, still learning the art of sharpening". The more helpful we can be, will just help everyone.

    Thanks for all of your information. I would love to hear more.

I've been using eze lap diamond stones freehand but as I get older I cant seem to hold the knife as steady as I used to. I noticed they are offering a system similar to the lansky but with diamond stones. Has anyone tried them?

The DMT aligner is a clamp system similar to the Lansky I think.  I've never used a Lansky but I had the aligner for about a year.  It's good but there are a couple of things about clamp systems that are imperfect.  Then again nothing is perfect.  When a bag of money came my way I got the edge Pro which I'd had on a wish list for a while.  You need a bag of money but it's worth it as long as that bag of money isn't needed for groceries. :)   But if you only want to spend $60 the aligner with the diamond stones is VERY good.  I have ezlap diamond files and they are good.  The DMT products are very good also. I have several of their sharpeners also including bench stones.

I love my DMT aligner. It's the best balance between effective, affordable and portable. My favourite jack of all trades system.

Alex and Jack, I'm not familiar with the DMT. What's the company name besides "DMT" ?

DMT:  Diamond Machining Technology

http://www.dmtsharp.com/sharpeners/bench-stones/

Great products.  I have several of their tools including bench stones.  Diamond stones are great but before you use any there are a couple of things to know or you will ruin the stones and/or not get the performance they are capable of.  Not to be concerned.  Just characteristics of the tools that is diamond sharpeners from all companies.  I have been VERY happy with them and after going through a few other types of knife sharpeners I've settled with DMT as one of the types I'll stick with.  The only company I want to try is Atoma but the prices are more than I want to pay.  I believe the performance is higher including life span but for someone who only sharpens his/her own knives DMT is GREAT.  If you sharpen professionally, all day long the Atomas are probably the way to go.  Or, just if you can afford it.  If I had more money I'd get them.  When it comes to tools I always want the best I can afford.  I just can't afford the best all the time.  Hope this helps.

Jack

Thanks Jack, for the info on the DMT. I might have to get one.

Thomas,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your theory of sharpness of knives.  I (in my limited experience) agree with you 99%.  I say 99 because even though I agree with you I just LOVE to get any knife SCARY sharp.  I've gone my whole life getting my knives sharp enough to shave my arm and was happy and the knives never failed me.  However, in the past few years I have learned what a very sharp knife edge is.  I never even THOUGHT of getting a pocket knife that sharp before.  The most important thing I think you hit on is knowing how a given knife is to be used and what it will be cutting.  If you put a super sharp razor edge on your steak knife the tip area where it touches the plate becomes useless for cutting after the first bite.  But, if the edge is just sharp enough to cut a tender juicy steak it may be dull according to some but the edge for cutting steak will last the entire meal and then some. :)  Tip I like for sharpening steak knives is get the edge as sharp as you want.  Razor sharp if you want.  Then draw the knive across the top of you stone VERY lightly as if you were cutting a steak.  This will "take the edge off" where the blade will be touching the plate and not get any duller during your meal.  A light stroke or two to remove the burr you just created and you are done.

I love sharpening.  The thing I love most is being able to get the edge as sharp as I need it to be.  If I need razor I can get it.  If I don't need razor, which is most of the time, it just saves me time.

One thing you didn't discuss and I'd like to get your thoughts on is the toothiness or smoothness of the edge and the difference in performance of each.  My understanding is something like this.  A super sharp toothy edge is better for cutting tomatoes than a super sharp smooth edge.  The toothy edge will breat the skin immediately while the smooth edge may need a little more force when slicing.  This may be unimportant to most people but chef's seem to care about things like this.  Especially if the extra force causes a food to "bruise".  A super smoothe edge on the other hand is better for push cutting wood.  So in addition to how sharp you get a knife there is also the consideration of how smooth the edge should be for the tasks required of that knife.  The super smooth edges are optained by using super high grit (6k or 8k and higher) sharpening stones.  A toothy edge can be optained by not going higher than 600 grit stone.  The grits are examples only and not written in stone.

When you said the children learn how to sharpen a knife as a normal skill like dressing themselves I thought how different that is than a lot of people I've known.  One guy I worked with (about 30) had never sharpened a knife.  I found this hard to believe.  I learned at the age of 8 or 10 I think.  There are so many different lifestyles in America the "normal" tasks learned can change from block to block it seems.

Thanks for the read.

Jack

Two excellent posts. Much knowledge to be gleamed.  I agree that sharpening is a lost art.  We live in a disposable society that that is losing its ability to repair and maintain its own basic tools. 

Yet, I make some money on the side because of this.  :)

I would love to sharpen knives for some extra $.  I wouldn't know where to start though.  I thought of it when I first started to see a sharpness improvement in my edges a few years ago.  Now that I have improved 10 fold I'm really glad I didn't start then.  It's a matter of knowing how sharp is sharp and thinking your edge is as sharp as a knife can get.  That comes from not seeing an edge sharper than you can get.  Sharpening for extra money would be nice because I enjoy it. Also, I would be able to see different knives and blade steels.  I would need to buy additional bandaids and a turnikit, tournaquit, (WHATEVER :)) to add to my sharpening supplies I bet. :)

Super Glue!  Keeps you working.

I have different knives for different jobs. The knife I skin deer and other large game is much sharper than the knife I cut onions with. My Woodscraft  knife is real sharp but has a steeper bevel, than that deer hunting knife. My Moose pattern pocket knife is the same way. The spear point, I use as a utility blade, has a steeper bevel than the Clip point, that I might use to skin a squirrel.

    I have been free hand sharpening for so long, I couldn't tell you the exact degree of bevel I use. I would guess, one under 20 degrees and one over 20 degrees.

    I sharpen a lot of knives for people. It is remarkable how many people that don't know how to sharpen a knife. I know some that are afraid to mess up their good knife. I tell everyone, "get an old or cheap knife and practice on it".

    Jack, if you make up your mine to learn to sharpen knives, you will learn. Free hand or with a devise. Good luck. Keep plenty of Super Glue handy......lol

Robert,

Here is how/when I learned about super glue.  I nick myself often.  Wife was the the Dollar Store and saw something called "Liquid Skin".  It came in tubes that looked like the small super glue tubes.  She bought it as a joke and gave it to me. :)  Sure enough, in a couple of days I had to use it and it worked great.  I mentioned it on another forum and about 3000 people said just use super glue.  Also that something like it is used in ERs.  Now I do keep super glue around where I sharpen. :)

Thomas, I see your point, but we do things a lot different, down here. There is just a few deer that are kept, for mounting, purposes, We, enjoy a very sharp knife and one that will hold it's edge, to skin and process, Whitetail deer.

Thomas,  I'd enjoy trying your ketchup if you ever get that going. :)

For me sharpening has become a hobby and a challenge to get sharper.  Just for fun.  For a while now I've been getting my knives sharper than I need them to be.  This is very satisfying for me.  Especially until recently I never even thought about getting a pocket knife sharper than arm shaving sharp.  Now I am whittling hairs. :):)   I also love the look on people's faces when I let them use my knife (seldome) and make the first cut then just look at the edge.  I LOVE that.

I'd like to say again I enjoyed reading your post.  It's not often anymore I've read about actual everyday use.  Normally it's videos of hair whittling, tests cutting rope with the same steel at different edge angles, stuff like that.  I enjoy that too even though it doesn't play any part in my knife life.  A good sharp knife is all I need.  It doesn't matter much what angle is on the edge.  I'm retired now and just open mail, work around the house and things like that with knives.  Oh yeah, I have cut lots of rope. :)

Jack

Thomas, I too have learned how important the edge angles are.  Just recently for me though.  My understanding and opinion is the lower the angle and thinner the blade the better it will cut.  This is always true.  However the cutting task, even the steel type make very thin edges impracticle for some situations.  Razor blades are very thin with low angles but I doubt they would be any good at cutting fire wood.  Or, a camp knife with higher angles (40° inclusive for example) can be sharp enough to shave but won't do in the kitchen cutting vegetables.  Another exaple is I got a tough folder once (SOG Tomcat).  It had very good steel and I had it very sharp.  I knew with my new tough knife it would handle anything.  Then I tried to cut some sheetrock.  DEFINATELY the wrong tool no matter how sharp it was. :)  Also, it wasn't sharp any more. :)  Now what I do with all my pocket knives is put a low angle on the edge then a micro bevel at a higher angle.  You hit on this yourself as a way to get good cutting performance and protect the edge also.  I can sit there sharpening playing with and experimenting with this stuff and my wife can't understand it.  That's ok.  I don't understand her glass stuff in a china cabinet. :)  I told her once I was going to get a china cabinet to hang my tools in.  Then I could sit there looking at them like she does the glass. :)  Her glass is pretty though.  Almost as pretty as my circular saw. lol

Thomas, that's what I was trying to convey about angels and different knives for different jobs. Also, just how sharp you want a knife for different jobs.

Then we all (all three of us) have the same opinion that edge angles are very important :-).

I can only measure down to 1/1000 part off 1 millimeter mm,( that is 1 micron) and I do it in a drawing program, not in “reality”.

The difference between 10 and 11 degrees, 0,05 mm behind the cutting edge, is 1/1000 part of 1 mm more material in the edge (one side of the edge). That is not a lot off material…

But, the edge is, in this spot, 8/1000 mm thick (one side of the edge) – so we add 12,5% more material to the edge when we go from 10 to 11 degrees. (For the complete edge, there is 16/1000 parts of 1 mm thick and we add 2/1000 parts of 1 mm = still 12,5% more material to the total edge).

So, when I add 1 degree to the edge I make the edge 12,5% stronger. But, it is still only 1/1000 part of 1 mm = 0,001 mm material I add to the edge  (= 1 micron). A normal hair from your head, if you are blond, is around 50 micron thick. If you have black hair it can be about 100 micron thick.

What we are talking about when we talk edges and degrees is very small amount of material we add to the edge, or, take away from the edge.

I do not know how deep scratches a diamond sharpener, in for example 25 micron, makes in the material – but I like to know this. Do anyone here knows this?

Thomas

Thomas, that's really interesting.  Black hair is thicker than blonde hair???  The rest of it is slightly above my head. :)  Since I spent 3 years in 4th grade math you would think I learned something. lol  Guess not.  This type of info is interesting though.  I have another forum friend who does all kinds of tests on edges including taking highly magnified pictures of the edges.  It's amazing what my beautiful mirror finish, razor sharp edge looks like at about 300x.  Very depressing.  My edges look better in the dark. :)

Since the three of us agree about edge angles we should colaborate on a book.  I say lower angles are more better.  You can quote me. That's about all I can contribute though. :)  I'm sure Robert has input.  I'll leave the rest to you.  Proceeds from the book and your new ketchup company should keep you in the black for years. lol

Hey guys, a good while back, we had knife sharpening experts, that were able to sharpen and polish a blade to a supper edge. They were such experts of precision, sharpening, they would not get along. We must realize, how sharp do we want a user knife. Do we want a knife sharper for tomatoes or potatoes?...lol I hope ya'll see my opinion, in the right light. Yes, Jack, these angles play a big part of that. Lets, stay friends and explore this knife sharpening subject, in a way, that we all understand, the other members point of view. Thanks....Stay Sharp!

Robert, excellent observation and point.  It's easy to stick to our own understanding and method of doing something when what we do works and not really try to understand someone else's view point OR why they don't just adopt my way. I have thought about that.  Why doesn't someone just beginning simply do what I say and nothing else.  It works for me so it should work for anyone is my opinion.  I forget that I developed my technique and method as a result of advice from many others and then my own likes/dislikes took over.  I 'm not like one of the experts you mentioned but would like to be one day.  Also expressing our ideas and having the info received accurately is always a hard thing.   Especially when we are limited in our communication to a computer screen and keyboard.  It would be so much better when we can be in one room showing each other how we do things AND WHY.  The WHY is the most  interesting and fun I think.  When you understand the why, the method makes more sense most of the time.  You mentioned "how sharp do we want a user knife".  That's one thing I forget about.  I just seem to want every knife "sharper". :)  Thomas' opinion and explanation about this is the most laid back and accurate one I've read I think.  Much info to be gotten from that guy I bet. :) 

I hope this made sense. :)  It's still early in the am for me.

Thanks Jack, I couldn't have said it better. I am old fashion and do things in old fashion ways. Now days there is so many new ways to sharpen a knife, I can't count them all. Some are better than others I guess. I was taught to sharpen knives, by my grand father that was born in 1907. He taught me one thing I'll pass on to you. He said when you come across a knife with poor steel and it won't take an edge, reverse your strokes on the stone. Instead of a forward stroke, stroke backwards. He said the poor steel is rolling at the very edge and is not letting you have a straight and sharp edge. I have tried this on poor knives brought to me to sharpen and it works.

Does anyone here sharpen straight razors?  I recently decided to start shaving using a straight razor an part of this requires sharpening (honing) the razor.  Actually this was the reason I decided to use a straight razor. Needing to sharpen the razor just feeds my obsession on getting sharp things sharper.  I've been working on this skill and see that it is very different than sharpening knives both in technique and the sharpness needed and obtained. The "basics" are the same it seems but the level of everything (technique and sharpness) seems to be much higher.   In fact if there is an interest here it may justify a separate group just for straight razor sharpening.  It does require buying sharpening stones and/or strops that are only needed for knives for the OCD people.  For straight razors however stone grits at 8k is required and maybe even higher grits. In fact once a straight razor is "shave ready" it may never see another stone under 8k even for touch ups.  Strops also.  But using these strops on straight razors is not the same as it appears in most movies. lol

Anyway, I'm off and crawling on this sharpening journey and wondered if anyone here has the same interest.

Jack

When I was young, a barber would shave you with a straight razor and all I ever saw him use to sharpen with was a huge strop. If that helps.

I shake way too much and take to many blood thinners to even try. lol

@JACK..good to meet ya... the reason i started wet shaving was it gave me anothe reason to collect more steel!...LOL...i told the wife they pay for themselves!

also i forgot to mention WALMART HAS A FEW STONE SYSTEMS..one even comes witha little angle piece you hold to make it easier if you do have the shakes and so forth... BUT THE BEST PART..REMMEBER even used/truied items that you do not like WALMART will atke right back for cash with receipt. my WALMART carries 2 different diamod hone sticks,some Lansky products. the CAMILLUS table top ...they even have a color coded,3 sided ,3 grit STONE setup!.. its a great and awesome way to even try certain knives. i grabbd a few USA bucks from their...and my only kershaw china that i was able to take back!once i didnt like it.... cant beat it!...

and yes jack..sharpening straights has been a goal of mine nad have truied lots of things ..i feel its one of those things that need to be taught HANDS ON....

@Jack,

I've been known to sharpen a razor every now and then. I use a Yellow Coticule stone for it.

Years ago I did a video on it:

Nowadays I have a very nice large coticule. But I still sharpen my razor myself.

Thanks for the heads-up, Steve! That video of Alexander's is definitely worth watching. And, thank you, Alexander! I use to shave with a straight razor many many years ago. In fact, it was another one of my obsessive-compulsive passions back then. Good stuff, though. I wish I still owned the Henckels razor, strop and shaving mug that were accumulated during that period. *sigh* Oh well...thanks, Alex!

Alexander,  this was great watching this.  I was amazed you went straight from only one stone to the stropping.  You did mention some razors needing coarser stones.  As I've been learning I've been progressing through 3 or 4 stones finishing with a 16k grit stone.  Then I strop with bench strops.  I don't have a flexible one yet.  I have been debating on getting one or not.  I've tried to get the flipping the razor with my fingers to work but I've been incredibly unsuccessful.  The area between the blade and handle (tang?) is rectangular and it doesn't flip easily  I think if it were square it would work easier.  The spine and tang is about 3.5mm thick and 8.8mm tall.  The razor is a hollow ground Boker.  It was given to me by a forum friend on another forum.  It had no handle.  The friend knows I like to make knife handles so he gave me this blade.  I have a CHEAP handle on it now but plan to make a nicer one when I get to it.  My point is I can't flip the dang razor.  I guess it doesn't matter since I'm using flat strops but that is one reason I haven't been in a hurry to get a flexible one.  Your thoughts on using the bench strops would be appreciated.  I'm getting it sharp enough to shave with but I don't know if a seasoned shaver would call it "shave ready" or not.  Hairs pop off my arm when I lay the edge on my skin but my knives to that too.  I shaved today and nicked myself 4 times.  Holding the razor properly while pulling my skin up with my other hand and keeping my hands out of the way so I can see what I'm doing in the mirror is the hardest thing in the world.  I'm convinced of this.  Going to the moon is easy by comparison. :)  I have a very common blood type so transfusions at the ER shouldn't be a problem. lol

Thanks for the video.  I learned quite a lot.  Mainly, I seem to be complicating what should be a relatively simple task.  I'm sure with experience you develop a routine and learn what is important and drop the rest.

Did anyone just let the video play and not stop it?  lol  If you did I don't know what subject came up for you but I saw a report on a beauty college.  If you didn't see this don't worry about it. LOL

Jack

@Jack

Thanks for the video.  I learned quite a lot.  Mainly, I seem to be complicating what should be a relatively simple task.  I'm sure with experience you develop a routine and learn what is important and drop the rest.

Jack, I think a lot of people tend to overcomplicate things. In fact, once people get into a hobby, I think MOST of them overcomplicate things.

The flipping thing is just a matter of practise to be honest. You get faster and smoother with it as you do it more. Just keep at it slowly and after a while it'll be second nature. I don't even think about it anymore.

Bench Strops should work just fine as long as you finish up with leather that has nothing on it. From what I've experienced you really need smooth leather to finish up on for that ultimate edge.

I've never really seen people use Bench Strops, but they do use Paddle Strops which are similar to a bench strop. So I suspect a bench strop should work just fine.

The Coticule Stones I use are somewhere in between 8k and 12k. But they're known in the shaving world to deliver some of the most comfortable shaving edges. Supposedly this has something to do with the garnets that are found in the stones.

I find my razor is about shave ready when I can cut hair WITHOUT touching the skin. And that's a lot sharper than I can get my knives so far. But for my razors with their thin grinds and LOW LOW angles I don't have much of a problem getting them that sharp.

@Ron

Thanks. I've really been enjoying my straight razors ever since I got into using one around8 years ago. They just work very well for me. And I'll never go back to the disposable route.

@Steve

No Kids, that's true Steve LOL. This was around 2006 when I'd been married to my sweetheart for not very long. Can you tell how well rested I am in that video...(bed hair LOL) In fact this was even before I'd gotten into knives or knifemaking. You know, back when I thought there were only two kinds of steel. Stainless and Carbon....