Alexander, have you tried kangaroo hide with no compound for straight razors?  I've been using it after .25µ diamond spray on balsa and leather (horse) and it seems to smooth the edge even more.  It is very thin and very smooth.  It's somewhat expensive though.  Those kangaroos don't let their skin go cheaply. lol  It works well on knives but with my razor honing skill being weak I don't have an opinion about it.  I just ordered a flexible strop because using my bench (or paddle) strops I'm very slow.  I hope to develop some speed over time with the flexible one.  Doing the same number of strokes you do in your video would take me a couple days being as slow as I am.  I'll listen to your advice though and go slow hoping the speed will come later.

Jack, I haven't had any access with 'Roo hide yet. I'd love to try some though.

Alexander, I had a chat with Ken Schwartz on the phone the other day.  He has "Ken's Corner" on the chefknivestogo.com site.  He seems to specialize in the high end aspect of sharpening.  He is the one I get the kangaroo strops from.  He explained that different materials (balsa or leather for example) have different effect on steel than just grinding steel away.  I don't understand it clearly but I'll explain how I understand it.  I'll use another strop material instead of balsa wood.  Nano-cloth.  Nano-cloth has no abrasive quality at all.  Stroking your edge on nano-cloth will not remove any steel at all.  It won't sharpen or dull the edge when using it without a compound.  If you spray nano-cloth with some 1 micron spray it will act just like a 1 micron strop where the diamond particles cut the steel.  Leather however produces a "smoothing" effect.  Instead of grinding steel away it sort of smooths the steel.  This is why leather with no compound still has an effect on the edge.  Then when you apply a compound to leather (kangaroo) you will get the results from the compound as well as the fact that leather has.  Kangaroo is very thin and VERY smooth compared to other leathers therefore the result is a smoother edge than if you had used cow hide.  Cow hide is not as smooth as kangaroo hide.  Of course we are talking about at the microscopic level.  The kangaroo will smooth the edge more than cow hide.  I don't know what micron level it is close to.  I have used it after .25 micron diamond spray  and the edge becomes smoother which is good for straight razors.  I have a 2x6" roo strop I use with no compound.  I just ordered some .1 micron CBN spray from Ken and a 2x6" roo  and a 2x6" nano-cloth strop.  I'm going to apply the .1 micron spray to both to see how it works.  I also have a 3x8" balsa and horse butt leather strop ordered.  Don't know what I'll put on them yet.  Ok, that's about all I know or think I know about this.  I think I really need to use the products to get a good idea of what Ken was trying to explain.  Some people say they use just kangaroo with different sprays or compounds on them.  After I try the new roo strop with .1 micron spray I'll know (I hope) if I want to get more roo strops and use different sprays of the below 1 micron range.  This stuff is expensive (for me) so I may need to spread purchases out.

I got the hanging strop and have used it but I'm REAL slow.  It does improve the edge though.  Hope I develope some speed.  For now I'm concentrating on laying the razor on the strop correctly.  Practice will result in getting faster I'm sure.

Jack

Maybe I'll give the Roo a try sometime in the future. For now I'm still fighting with my Cowry-X A.G. Russell to get it near the sharpness that I want.

I have to admit I am loving experimenting with the different strops and sprays.  The thing I REALLY HATE is the differences in the edge they produce (and there is a significant difference if you look for it) makes absolutely no difference in the use of my pocket knives.  Well, it does IF I LOOK OR FEEL FOR IT.  But if my edge has a tooty 1k edge or a super smooth 16k stone stropped with a roo strop edge the package UPS just brought gets just as opened. lol  And I don't spend enough time cooking to appreciate what the chefs appreciate in the different edges they (some of them) like on different knives.  I guess a toothy edge is better for breaking through the skin of a tomato than a smooth edge.  But a very smooth edge is better for other things.  I guess I'll have to take up cheffing to appreciate my edges. lol  Actualling, taking up straight razor razor shaving is the first thing I'll be doing to actually appreciate a SMOOTH edge that I'll be creating.

The thing about the "raises more questions" issue is your (I, we) can't really get any decent understanding of an answer we get until we actually DO IT.  Leather "smoothing" steel instead of abrading or grinding it sounds stupid.  Ask anybody.  You can't "smooth" steel.  It's just that using the word smooth instead of grind can be pictured easier (to me anyway).  I think what is really happening is the tops of the hills on each side of a valley (THE VALLEYS ARE SCRATCHS) are "smoothed"  (ACTUALLY GROUND OR ABRADED).  The hills aren't actually smoothing into the valleys like butter would but at this level of abrasion I guess that is how using leather bare with no diamond spray or paste or anything else is explained or understood.  Here's an example of a question I think.  I have a new horse strop that I've been using bare.  3 or 4 strokes per side put a crispness on an edge that wasn't there after using a balsa strop with one micron boron carbide.  That leaves a bit of a toothy edge and is great as a final step for pocket knives IMO.   So after using the horse bare for about a week I sprayed some .25 micron diamond spray on it.  I did that because I have some .1 micron CBN spray coming with another roo and nano-cloth strop to use after the horse with .25.  There seems to be a delay with those items though.  So I think to really understand what all this means is I need to get (yup, buy) this stuff and use it.  Then feel the difference in the results.

Here is something to consider before buying stuff for a really refined edge.  If your ability isn't good enough there is no way to get the results the really fine grit sprays, pastes, etc. will give you.  I only say that because two years ago my kill was not good enough to get the results I'm getting now.  In fact I've had the .25 micron spray for about a year I guess and remember KNOWING I had wasted my money on it because it didn't dhange my 1 micron strop edge.  Now the same edge off the 1 micron strop (which by itself is better) the .25 micron spray refines the edge even more.  The spray hasn't changed.  My ability to hold a consistant edge angle on a stone or strop has.  This has come from practice which I have plenty of time to do. Two to three hours a day sometimes.  Sometimes none but most days I do some sharpening or stropping just for experimentation or practice (fun lol).  Just like anything ability improves with practice.  I kinda hope no one thinks I'm bragging.  One thing is for sure.  This new ability I have is for all practical purposes useless.  Unless I start sharpening knives for money.  Sometimes that takes the fun out of a hobby.

Jack

Steve,  I switched back to my email and read your post again.  I drifted from a question I think.  Leather smooths and diamond spray (or other abrasives) abrades.  So the combination of different leathers (horse, cow, kangaroo or whatever)  combined with different abrasives will produce different results.  Or maybe the same results but you don't need to try every combination.  I'm going to try to determine what I would use as a bare minimum sharpening/stropping set and still getting the super smooth truely razor edge.  Some of the straight razor honers use two or three stones and one or maybe two strops and that's it.  Some of them may have tried lots of things.  Some may have been told what to buy 20 years ago and only used that.  Who knows.  Gotta cut this short.

Leather smooths and abrasives abrade and the combination of them is interesting but not something I'd recommend. lol

This is for anyone looking for their first sharpening set.  My opinion of course so take that for what it's worth.

I think the best performing sharpening stone and strop set that performs GREAT is a Spyderco medium and fine grit stones and a strop block from knivesplus.com.  I haven't used the Spyderco medium stone but others have and say it works good and removes steel pretty fast.  I use a DMT fine and extra fine grit instead of the Spyderco med. because I already had them so I didn't get the SP med.  Before buying diamond stones you need to know how to use them.  They are great but you can't just lend them to your friend or they may ruin them.  I have the Spyderco fine (6 micorn approx.) and ultra-fine (3 micron approx.) grit stones and I SWEAR by their performance.  The fine grit puts a great edge on a knife.   The ultra-fine grit puts a very refined edge on the knife and is unneeded really.  Personally, I think I would rather have a DMT fine grit (25 micron) stone instead of the Spyderco medium grit but that is based on never using the Spyderco med.  So, Spyderco med. (or DMT fine), Spyderco fine grit stones.  Add a strop block from knivesplus.com ($20) if you want to.  This strop never needs more compound added.  You rejuvinate it once in a while with a few drops of olive oil.  I recommend cutleryshoppe.com for the stones for prices but you may be able to do better on ebay.  But if you want just about guaranteed good service and immediate shipping you can't do better than cutlery shoppe.com IMO.  The set should be under $100.

I  suggested an inexpensive strop because with some practice you can get the edges very very sharp using only stones.  But for a while a strop will give you that crisper shapness until you CAN get it with stones.  Of course after that the strops can get the edge crisper but you better just stop and be happy with your sharp knives. :)

From my experience I know these suggestions work.  If anyone who is learning to sharpens gets these stones and can't get the edge sharp they just need more practice.  PLEASE don't buy other stones thinking you will do better with them.  Again, just my opinion.

Jack

I'd like t see Mr. Ewing's list.  My recmmendation of Spyderco stones is actually a  good choice IMO of very well performing stones at a very reasonable price.  Unless someone wants to get "into" sharpening they are all most people would need.  There are lots of great stones out there of course.  Since I wrote that someone sent me a Spyderco medium stone to try.  I liked it a lot and would now recommend it also for someone who needs a basic stone set.  I won't get one because I already have that grit range covered.  The medium grit is good but I do prefer a DMT fine or coarse instead.  As you said the stone manufacturers would love it if everyone LOVED to sit down and sharpen knives just for fun.  Especially if they  bought a lot of different stone types to try. :) The reality is of course that some considering sharpening a necessary evil so they can have a knife sharp enough to get the job done.  I was talking to a professional sharpener a while back on the phone and he said he has well over a hundred sharpening stones but only uses a handful.  For him a handful may be 10 or 15 while most can get away with one or two stones for a lifetime.  I know I could but I have 5 bench stones and several strops and more than that for the Edge Pro.  I might get a 12 grit stone for straight razors but probably not.  I just ordered some leather to make  a few strops.  I will probably get some glass to glue the leather to along with a piece of wood on the bottom.  If things work out like I hope I will have several strops I won't use and may sell cheap.  Why have stuff I don't need?   The sharpening system The systems you mentioned along with all the other choices make making a decision hard for someone getting started.  As long as someone buys a good set (and there are MANY) and sticks with it they should be happy.  I'm very happy to say my personal goal regarding sharpening has been 99.9% satisfied.  Really it's 100% but I'll want more in the future probably. :)  A friend sent me a small kangaroo strop with .025 micron polycrystaline spray on it.  That really puts a super crisp razor sharp (literally) edge on a knife.  However, a larger roo strop and a bottle of the spray would cost around $85.  The bottle of spray could spray a hundred strops or more though.  Anyone need 100 strops of the same grit?????  lol  It would be good if you sold strops I guess.

One problem I have is I don't have enough knives to sharpen. lol  So if anyone needs a knife(s) sharpened I'll do it for free.  Just cover return shipping.  I would do that for knives that are user knives.  NOT expensive knives or $10,000 swords. lol  But if anyone wants a knife very sharp and can't or doesn't want to do it I have time on my hands. NO WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES IF SOMETHING IS LOST IN THE MAIL OR LIGHTNING STRIKES AT THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.  I'm just not in the position to be replacing knives.  Also, no knives that if I accidentally scratched a beautiful blade it would be a problem.  Just good user knives.  If anyone is interested I'll put as good an edge on it as I can.  Let me know if anyone wants to give me something to do. :)

About my offer to sharpen knives.  It doesn't matter how hard the blade steel is.  If anyone has a knife that is hard to sharpen because the steel is hard I'll do it.  This is not an attempt to brag or anything like that.  I've heard people say some knives are harder to sharpen than others.  This is 100% true.  But I've got the stones that will do it.  So if there are knives like this out there and someone doesn't want to buy new stones I'll sharpen the knives.  Again, no guarantees except one.  I'm honest.  That's my only claim.  I also understand not trusting me.  I would have a hard time sending a knife I cared about to a perfect stranger who isn't in a business and offers no guarantees.

Very, very impressive.  I find that even more impressive now that I've been shaving with a straight razor for a few months.  One thing that makes that so very difficult with most knives is the much higher angle  and blade thickness.  I'd say he has a VERY sharp and smooth edge on that knife.  

That's almost unbelieveable. To do what he claims to be doing DRY. And to go from a full beard, no less! Truly amazing!

Man do I need this group.  Looking to learn a lot as I am not satisfied with the results I am getting with my Arkansas stones.  I am sure it is my lack of proficiency and inability to maintain a consistent angle. 

consistent angle -YOU SURE SAID IT ..thats always been my problem..i have tons of sharpening everything ..i even collect them..i love the ones you can mount down to a bench and drw a knife through..although i almost never use them!..I COLLECT ALL THAT IS KNIFE!...LOL!.. but with me it has always been the angle..  i have even a few kits that have things to help you with the angle.litle plastic guides most of the time... all in all i just havent sat and practiced enough...im sure with a few weeks everyday ...all the piles of rocks i have and pocket stones and ceramic sliders ectect.....also touching up knives and their edge and even stoppig a straight if its for the most part honed corredctly i can do.butfrom scrath completly dull..i can get an edge...but not always and not always SHAVE READY..i  like all my knives to be shave ready-i know its a term most use for straight razors but why not have all knives hair popping sharp!..

Peter, David and anyone else interested in how to maintain a consistent angle when sharpening here is one method.  It works.  Your technique may need to change but if you think you need improvement here is one way.  I learned this about 6 months ago. It works.  I have a very specific plan when I start for every single movement I make during one stroke.  Then I repeat.  Please take your time if you read this and try it.

1. Get a knife with a blade length 3" or less that has some belly (curve). NOT a wharncliff blade.

2. Put your stone in front of you.

3. Lay your knife blade ON IT'S SIDE on your stone at a 90 degree angle with the stone. Make sure the tip of the blade is ON THE STONE, not extended past that side of the stone.

4. Now, using your wrist spin the knife handle so the spine lifts off the stone so the spine is off the stone about the distance of two quarters stacked on top of each other. This is just an estimate. The actual angle you get now is not important. What you are going to do is learn how to maintain the same angle throughout one complete stroke from the heel of the edge (at the handle) all the way to the tip of the blade.

5. Now that you have the blade sitting on the stone (NOT MOVING) I want you to do one thing only. KEEP YOUR WRIST LOCKED and LIFT THE KNIFE HANDLE UP VERY SLOWLY while watching the contact point of the blade edge with the stone. As you slowly lift your hand you can watch the contact point move along the edge, around the belly and all the way to the tip. When the tip JUST TOUCHES THE EDGE stop lifting your hand. Now you are not moving again and you should be looking at your knife blade with the tip touching the stone at the same angle it was when you started lifting your hand IF YOU KEPT YOUR WRIST LOCKED. Any twisting of the knife handle changes the edge angle you are trying to keep the same and consistent. DO NOT TWIST THE KNIFE HANDLE AS YOU LIFT YOUR HAND.

Now, do this lifting your hand until the tip reaches the stone and then lower your hand until the straight part of the edge is on the stone again. Or, if the edge has no straight area or is too long just lower your hand until the edge is touching the other side of the stone. Keep lifting and lowering your hand over and over until you have that motion down and it feels comfortable. This is how to maintain a consistent edge angle throughout one stroke.

I need another comment. I created this in Word and it is too long for one comment on this forum.

My previous continued.

6. Now, let's go to the next part. This time when your knife is in the starting position start pushing (stroking) the edge away from you along the stone. After the edge has moved about 1/4" or so start lifting your hand EXACTLY AS YOU DID BEFORE. What is the most important thing??? KEEP YOUR WRIST LOCKED SO YOU DON'T TWIST THE KNIFE HANDLE. As you are stroking keep the knife blade at a 90 degree angle (perpendicular) with the stone. Repeat: KEEP THE BLADE PERPINDICULAR WITH THE STONE. When your blade reaches the far end of the stone your hand should be high enough for the tip to be touching the stone with your hand up high. When the tip touches the stone stop but don't remove the edge from the stone. Then start bring the blade back down the stone while LOWERING your hand slowly. When the knife gets back to the beginning of the stone the handle should be down so the straight part of the edge is on the stone. You are now at the starting point again and you have not picked the blade up off the stone AT ALL.

RESULT:
You have just performed one stroke (up and back) and if you haven't twisted your wrist and if you lifted your hand straight up and if you kept the blade at a 90 degree angle with the stone YOU HAVE KEPT THE ANGLE THE SAME FROM ONE END OF THE EDGE TO THE OTHER (heel to tip).

NOW DO IT AGAIN. Do it again several times. Get the feel of going up and down the stone while maintaining a consistent angle. Depending on the length of the blade you may be able to start the stroke at the heel and go all the way to the tip at the top end of the stone in one motion. With longer blades I cover a portion of the edge up and back then do a next section then another until I reach the tip. Do this part however is comfortable for you.

NOW, FLIP THE BLADE OVER, HOLD THE HANDLE WITH YOUR OTHER HAND AND DO THE EXACT SAME THING WITH THE HANDLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STONE. If you are not used to using your other hand when sharpening I know how you feel. But, when always stroking away from you, you can see how far the spine is off the stone. The distance between stone and spine needs to be the same to put the same angle on both sides of the edge. I forced myself to learn to stroke the knife with my other hand. If you don't want to do this it's fine as long as to sharpen the other side of the edge you have a way to maintain a consistent angle. Personally, I think it's better in the long run to learn to use your other hand so the entire process is the same except for using a different hand. My left hand got used to it pretty quickly and I think your will too. That is unless you already use both hands.

You may need to read these directions a few times or read them as you learn the stroke so I suggest you print them.

Part 3 and last of my initial comment.

I've been sharpening my pocket knives since I was 10 or 12 when Dad showed me how. Here is his entire sharpening lesson. Stroke the blade up and back (one handed flipping the blade) until you get a burr on one side. Then put the burr side on the stone and do one or two very light strokes to remove the burr. Now your knife is sharp. THAT WAS IT. And truthfully, that's all that is really needed if you need a pocket knife that will open your mail, open a box, etc. So for 20-30 years this is what I did. I was stroking and flipping the blade across stones not really understanding or "getting it". Three or four years ago I started trying to increase my ability. Still, until about 6 months ago I still hadn't seen or heard any SPECIFIC steps on how to maintain a consistent angle. Then I came across a forum thread on bladeforums.com titled "THE FIRST SHARPENING". The author's forum name is knifenut2013. If your are even the slightest bit interested in what I've written I suggest you start reading this thread. Get coffee, it's a long one because of all the other people's (including me) comments. Also, check out this guy's youtube videos.

I'm going to finish with this statement. Since I developed a very specific series of steps to perform I am probably 10 times as accurate when sharpening a knife free hand. It's not like you won't need to practice, you will. Use some cheap knives so you don't need to worry about sharpening and practicing your knife blades away. :) Especially your favorite knives you may have paid a gob of money for.

If you have any questions please ask. But don't forget to check out the thread on BF.com.

Good luck. It's so much more fun when you actually have a plan and when you see much faster improvement in your results. One more thing. CHECK OUT KNIFENUT2013's thread. Oh, I already said that.

Jack

If you didn't want to read my comments check out this if you want to discuss how to improve from someone who does know how to sharpen. I talked to him on the phone for a while and he cleared up several things for me. It's so much easier to discuss this stuff on the phone or in person than on a forum. Not knocking forums, I love them. You know what I mean though.

THE FIRST SHARPENING". The author's forum name is knifenut2013. If your are even the slightest bit interested in what I've written I suggest you start reading this thread. Get coffee, it's a long one because of all the other people's (including me) comments. Also, check out this guy's youtube videos.

I had trouble following and picturing your instructions Jack, but it does make me nervous to try sharpening.  I don't want to ruin my blades.  Is there a good youtube video that might help those of us who need some help visualizing this process?

Benjamin...try looking into a sharpening system like the Edge Pro. Makes keeping your angles alot easier. I had incredible results right out of the box.

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?62348-Sharpening-free...

Above

is

a

thread I posted on the Spyderco forum.  It shows two stroke methods.  I prefer the "lift handle" method but both are great.  My major point in all this is that having a specified stroke plan is the key.  Not just stroking until you feel comfortable.  What if you have become comfortable with a bad habit but don't know it's a bad habit or why it is bad or not as good as something else.  I suggest start with a basic stroke then adapt that method to the different type blades you have or whatever you prefer.  Just start with a known working very basic method.  Hope this helps.

Here is a video I made a couple of weeks ago demonstrating how to stroke a knfe edge along the stone while maintaining a consistent edge angle.  Of course the consistency is based on the amount of control the sharpener has. More practice results in more consistency.  To sharpen the other side of the edge I would hold the knife in my right hand.  I had to change my method because for many years I only held the knife in my right hand because I was right handed.  I would also stroke from tip to heel when going up the stone, flip the blade and stroke heel to tip when coming back down.  Since everything was reversed I couldn't SEE the angle the same for each side.  I always wondered why on one side of the edge the bevel was much wider near the tip while on the other side of the edge the bevel was different.  So, when trying to perfect (as much as possible) my sharpening I decided to change whatever I needed or wanted to to get better.  Instead of changing old habits which may have been good or bad I listened to someone else who had more experience than I did and based on pictures of his edges was a MUCH more skilled sharpener.  Anyway, here is a short video of the free hand stroke I now use.  It's not the only method and I'll post another video of another method in a minute.  But this is my favorite of the two.

" target="_blank"><embed width="200" height="120" type="appli...

In the previous post I didn't mention KEEPING THE WRIST LOCKED TO KEEP THE ANGLE THE SAME.  The angle is changed by twisting the knife handle raising or lowering the spine until you have the angle you want.

Here are a couple of pictures of an edge I profiled last night using the lift handle free hand method.  The important things (to me) is the consistency of the bevel width all the way around the belly.  Also the flatness of the bevel.  The more consistent the angle the flatter the bevel will be.  No one can keep the angle as consistent free hand as you can get with an EP or other "system".  Nothing wrong with a convex edge though. :)

I just noticed after I posted the one video I meant to now there are other videos related to the same thing.  This is really cool and is done by photobucket I guess.  There is a video of the "lifting the handle" as well as NOT "lifting the handle".  Hope these help.  Changing to this method was like opening a whole new world of sharpening to me.  Easy to understand.  The first method I learned many months ago was the "NOT lifting my handle".  This works very well but is a bit more difficult to maintain consistency than the "lift handle" method.  Compared to either of these methods I now feel like I have been just flipping and flopping and flapping the edge on a sharpening stone all my life.  I have been getting my pocket knives sharp enough to shave arm hair forever but now I'm getting much sharper results and I understand exactly what to do and how to do it.  If anyone already has a method that works, cool.  But for people who are just learning I believe it is better to START with a known method that is easier and works.  Much better than being told "you have to maintain a consistent angle" and not being told HOW to do it.  All I was ever told was you get better with practice.  But normally with any skill we end up practicing poor habits and technique.

Just my thoughts.  Don't forget to check out the "THE FIRST SHARPENING" thread on BF.com started by "knifenut1013".

Jack

Here is the "DON'T LIFT HANDLE" method in case anyone can't see it in my previous post. THis method works but is my least favorite of the two. I used this method for a few months and loved it. But when I learned the "LIFT HANDLE" method I now use it.

The key with either method is to keep the PLANE of the knife edge and the PLANE of the stone AT THE SAME ANGLE.

I'll stop but I just want to emphasize that neither of these methods are of my own development.  They both came from different people with tons of experience and proven skill and result.  The thing to focus on is they both have a PLAN to follow regarding the stroke before they start.  It's the same as a pool player developing a stroke he can repeat for more consistent accuracy.  Or a golfer.  Or a pitcher. Or a bowler.  Oh yeah.  It does require practicing either method.  And don't forget to check out the "THE FIRST SHARPENING" thread on BF.com.

I have repeated a lot of things and to give them the attention they deserve, IMO they could be repeated even more.  It's all great info for anyone who wants to improve to whatever level they want.

Jack

One more comment.  Also check out the thread I posted on Spyderco's forum. The title is "Sharpening free hand, lift handle or don't lift handle".  It's the same stuff I've covered here but I just glanced at it again and there may be info there I didn't put here.  It is all based on the techniques I learned from someone else.  I didn't come up with any of this stuff myself.  The congratulations goes to other people.

Jack

Steve, kinda sorta off subject but maybe not completely.  My grandson turned 4years old in Jan.  When he learns something on a video game that he is just learning to play in his mind he knows how to play and in his mind he thinks he knows everything.  You can tell this when talking to him.  But, being 4 he hasn't the experience to know and realize there is much more to learn.  Now that we are unbelieveably old :) we can realize this.  So back on subject, I thought I was a good sharpener most of my life because my knives opened every box I tried to open. I didn't really think about how sharp the edge could be on a pocket knife.  The world of razors and kitchen knives used by professional chefs and situations like that never even occurred to me when it came to sharpening any sharp edged tool.  WHY???  BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WAS A GOOD SHARPENER AND KNEW EVERYTHING!   Remind me of someone??? Yup, my 4 year old grandson. LOLLOL  As I learned more and more about sharpening it became painfully obvious I knew less and less the more I learned.  It's still fun and I still make myself feel stupid every time I reach another sharpening plateau or sharpness at a higher lever THAT I DIDN'T KNOW WAS POSSIBLE.  But if I have to feel stupid to get my knives sharper, so be it.  Normally I can feel stupid with no benefit at all. :)

Jack

OMG Jack he is adorable!!!!  I watched closely...he DOES know it ALL LOL!!

Billy, I got into an argumetn

Billy, I got into an argument on Friday with my grandson about how to do a certain thing on one of his video games. He gave me one of those looks like "how can I be related to this guy" (lol), took the controler and proved he was right. Talk about humbling. :)

Thanks Jan. Do you know what he is? He is the reason to live. :)

Jack

And a wonderful reason at that Jack!

Grand children are very special. I think as we get older we appreciate children more and doing things with them is some of the best experiences we can have.

I put this in the Spyderco lover's group also but since it has to do with edge sharpness and/or retention I put it here also for anyone who may not be a Spyderco lover.  This is really (IMO) a good demo of edge retention of a given steel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auBEgSmKApc

Here is another demo.

http://s800.photobucket.com/user/jackknifeh/media/Sharpening/DSCN54...

Here is another demo.

http://s800.photobucket.com/user/jackknifeh/media/Sharpening/DSCN54...

If I understand you correctly, Stephen, a Scandi grind is a convex grind and should be sharpened convex?

Thanks, Jack for the knife dulling videos.

Stephen, I couldn't sharpen a knife like this free hand.  Not even close.  Using an Edge Pro I could keep the bevels flat but still it would be difficult because whenever the bevel is wider like this it's harder for me to get the attention to detail right on the edge apex I can get when using a seperate edge (micro) bevel. I use micro bevels even when the blade steel is capable of holding an edge at the angle of the scandi bevel just because touch ups are easy and fast with a seperate edge bevel.   My hat is off to you for even trying. :)

Howard,

I would like to try dulling edges of different type steels just to see but I couldn't force myself to do that to the edges any more.  I wasn't even trying to test edge retention when I started.  I just wanted to dull the edge and when the M4 on the Gayle Bradley didn't get dull immediately I was amazed.  Love CPM-M4 and that knife. :)

Jack

Jack,

I'm with you on Primary & Secondary bevels for work knives, but I have trouble remembering which is which when talking about it.  Probably don't need it for kitchen cutlery, but as you say, "tune-up" is easier, and if you have some clad kitchen knives, just tuning up the edge takes less metal off.

en I started talking to people on the pc about knives it surprised me at the different ways people referred to different parts of a knife. Since I didn't know much I just started learning. A primary bevel, to me, should be the cutting edge and the sec. bevel is above that. I've seen them referred to just the opposite. Some people call the edge bevel (my favorite) a micro bevel. I like to use the term "micro" only when the "edge bevel" is VERY small. Barely visible. I also like Spyderco's terms. Edge bevel and back bevel. This way the word "edge" is used to mean the cutting edge. Then they say " back bevel" for the bevel above that. Murray Carter uses primary and secondary terms. Primary means the edge bevel. Mr. Carter being a Japanese bladesmith of some very high level is about good enough for me to estsblish a terminology standard. Until a standard dictionary of edge terms is written we'll just have to figure out what the heck we are talking about. :)

Jack

Yep, "back bevel" works.  I don't want to start no trouble, but I use a back bevel of 10 degrees, and an edge bevel of 18 degrees on kitchen knives.  15 degrees and 23 degrees for work knives.

Howard, thats about what I like to do.  If I want to be accurate I use an Edge Pro to set a main bevel of 10 or 12° and an edge bevel 16-18° (per side) depending on the steel and intended use. Harder work = higher angles as a rule.  Recently I 've been sharpening free hand and just go for lower or not so low angles. But setting the initial angle with an EP or other "system" I know what angle it is. But a knife just cuts better the thinner the blade is.  So keeping the back bevel low we get better cutting and with the higher edge bevel we get less chipping, rolling, etc.  It still amazes me how complicated we can make a simple thing like sharpening a knife. :)  But, it does work to get a much better performing tool.

Jack

u don't need a system to establish a known angle IMO. It'ts nice to have a "known" angle but it's not necessary. Riht now I bave an Edge Pro with a set of really nice stones. I also have diamond stones, water stones and two Spyderco ceramic stones. If I had to sell everything except one set (don't you hate that question?) I think I'd keep the Shapton glass bench stones. I just get more pleasure doing it by hand and those stones do a really good job. I also use them for my two straight razors. Personal preference is all. After sharpening a few knives you can tell if the angle is really low or high even if you can't assign an angle degree number to it. 

Just my opinion.  Others may feel differently.

Jack

I came across this belt sharpener recently on YouTube so I thought I would post it here.  Must be new because only the manufacturer seems to have it (not on Amazon yet).  Looks like a great idea.  There is an adjustable floor plate with degree marks on the side so you get the exact angle you want.  Lay the blade flat on the plate and the belt sander sharpens it at the angle you set.  Oddly, to me, the belt turns toward the blade, as if you were hand sharpening on a bench stone.  I would think that going away from the edge would be a better option.  So, for a convex edge you'll have to strop the knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcrl_ZJ1V9c

Price I saw on the manufacturers site (abletotech.com) is $250.

Thanks for the post, Howard. It looks pretty capable and versatile compared to my Worksharp, however a lot more expensive also.

Steve,

Don't know if they give you angle suggestions for tools, but I'm thinkin that for chisels you could probably use a magnetic digital angle finder - the ones they use for table saw blade angles (about 2" x 2" x 3/4" thick) - set the chisel on a flat surface, and the magnetic angle finder on the chisel face & read the angle.  Knives, your own experience should do - shallow angle somewhere between 10 & 18 degrees, for kitchen cutlery that does all the slicing work, and 20-25 degrees for work knives that do some chopping.  Whatever angle you pick within the range is probably as good as any other, so pick an "expert" and follow his suggestions.  I think it is really personal preference in picking a specific angle for various knife jobs.  They say, because every "expert" knife sharpener has his favorite angle for knives or knife jobs, that the most important thing is to maintain whatever angle you choose, on both sides of the knife during sharpening, which this new machine should guarantee.

Hey guys, I went back to the abletotech.com site, through a google search for the "Multi Systems Belt Sander" cause I forgot to write the site down, and found that they are having a sale on stuff.  The angle finding belt sander is now selling for $145.

Looks good, Ron.