The sword bayonet continued service in WWII especially among ANZAC forces who retained the SMLE rather than adopting No. 4 Enfield Rifle. While intimidating and impressive to look at, the blade was heavy and for some people this made it more difficult to sight the rifle when the bayonet was fixed. The bayonet dated from before WWI (1907) and remained relatively unchanged being manufactured by numerous companies in Britain and throughout the Commonwealth. The Indian Army produced a shorten version of the bayonet for use in their Army.
More Bayonets. The top one is my Spanish Mauser Bayonet for the M1893 Mauser Rifle used by the Spanish Army during the Spanish American War and on through the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s. It probably was also pressed into service by Axis forces. Many of them came to America after the Spanish Civil War as well as during and post WWII.
The Bottom is my US M7 Bayonet used with the M16 rifle and its variants until recent years.
Top: M1893 Bayonet made by Artilleria Fa. Nacional de Toledo (National Armaments Factory in Toledo, Spain)
Overall length: 21 inches,
Blade length: 15.5 inches.
Smooth wood handle (repaired)
Leather Scabbard with with metal throat and tip.
Un matched serial numbers
Bottom: M7 Bayonet made by BOC , NSN: 1095-00-073-9238.
Overall length: 11 3/8 inches
Blade length: 6 7/8 inches
Checkered Composition grip (held on by screws)
Scabbard: M8a1 made of fiberglass w/steel throat riveted to webbing with belt loop and M1910 belt hooks.
The M7 is the great, great, great grand child of the M4 bayonet which was the ugly cousin of the M3 trench knife. It was replaced by the M9 Bayonet.
The M8a1 scabbard dated to WWII and fit the M3 knife and M4 bayonet however post 1953 markings for the M8a1 scabbard differ from WWII issued M8 a1 scabbards.
Here's the only bayonet that I have left. I used to have a large collection of them.
Original date of bayonet is 1942 - 15" shortened to 10"
The army made no attempt to differentiate between the M1 bayonet and the shortened M1905.
Some collectors feel that the shortened bayonet did not enter service until too late to see much active combat in WW2, but the M1905E1 entered Ordnance channels in September 1943 and by the end of 1943 over 225,000 had entered the supply system, so the shortened type is certainly appropriate for any 1944 or later rifle.
Thanks Craig, That's a great photo. One thing I learned while working on my pages for theBritish Long Range Desert Group was American Ordinance, once approved was often in the front lines within weeks. Things were literally being put on ships and planes before the paint dried. It may not have shown up in every theater of operation or within every unit. but it was making it to the front and in battle often with the same month manufacturing began. On the other hand, some items never saw action in certain areas of operation or with certain units.
Also, even in WWI, soldiers in all Armies risked court martial by shortening the unwieldy sword bayonets simply because they learned quickly all that extra steel might look cool and nasty but ruined your ability to sight your rifle and was actually a hindrance in a bayonet fight, especially in the trenches.
I guess I should have mentioned, for a little tie-in with knife companies, that it was made by Utica Cutlery, and was shortened by Union Fork and Hoe Company.
Another side note; my helmet is an authentic WWII M1 helmet reconditioned and in the markings of the 327th Glider Infantry Regiment - "Bastogne Bulldogs" - of the 101st Airborne Division. A unit that always seems to gets overshadowed in the movies and books by the Parachute Infantry Regiment guys.
I'm guessing you may already kniw this but what the heck, I'll say it any way:
Originally the Glider infantry didn't get the Hazardous Duty or so-called Jump pay, because some bureaucrat compared arriving in a glider about the same as being trucked in. On top of that Glider troops didn't need to go to jump school. I'm not sure exactly when the philosophy changed but it was after they realized that Glider troops were taking about same if not higher casualties than troops who were jumping from planes.
A good chunk of jump qualified parachute types were not happy when the Glider troops got the hazardous duty pay. Apparently they also felt the glider troops were coming via Taxi.
Yeah, there even were a couple of fights that broke out between the Glider and Para boys. BUT, all you have to do is read about what the 327th did in WWII to know why they got their WELL EARNED combat pay!
From the Airborne & Special Operations Museum, Fayetteville, North Carolina;
"Being a glider trooper was no picnic. Paratroopers got a parachute badge, extra pay, wore a distinctive uniform and had highly prized jump boots. Glider troops enjoyed none of these distinctions. Their duty was simple: ride an aircraft made of plywood, cloth and steel tubing into the teeth of the enemy air defenses, land and attack. One veteran paratrooper officer of the 82nd who was ordered to go into Normandy by glider on D-Day said upon landing, “These people don’t get paid enough.” The ride, he exclaimed, was far worse than a parachute jump. After Normandy, glider troops received hazardous duty pay, wore the same uniform as the paratroopers, had their own silver qualification badge and, best of all, got to wear jump boots."
sorry follks ain't been on much the wifes had a migrain since friday and ive been busy and ive been down with the crud thats to everyone on here posting pic.i'll chat more tommorrow...thanks tom
I learned about the gliders when staioned at Ft Bragg in the early seventies, but do not recall the disputation about hazard pay. There place in history as brave troops is secure. Is this insignia no longer worn by our Troopers? Man I am old I am starting to realize. Is the service cap even worn?
Billy, we do seem to be growing. Glad everyone has a place to discuss those important knives that dont have the biggest names in the industry. I have seen some very nice and intriguing knives and patterns in here. As well as history on how and what. Thank you all for sharing with us. I am an info junkie so bring it all on!!!
well it finally cleared up but more rain comeing it killing my flea markets,kinda tard of counting cars,and ,you ever tried to count rain drops.???? keep all kinds of knives rolling looking good a another new menber thanks tom if we ain;t friends send me a invite..like to meet new folks on here,see ya'll later .thanks tom
Thomas, counting raindrops? Now that is an activity I have not tried LOL. It will clear up and they will have a bunch of new knives at the flea market for you. :)
Do you mean a discussion within Box Full of knives or a bonafide group? I think if you're looking at a bonafide group, you should cast the net a little wider and have a group called "small patterns" or Gents, lobsters, penknives, etc. I've got maybe 10-15 knives that are equal-end penknives but probably 50 or so that fit the classification of a Gentleman's knife.
I wasn't sure about the level of interest so I was thinking of a discussion forum here along the lines of the Bulldog Group to start. Your idea to include a variety of small patterns including penknives, lobster, etc is a good idea. Thanks.
I found a vintage Moose knife for sale but I have no idea if the knife is worth what he is asking. I guess thats a problem for everyone, if you have nothing to judge it against.
I'm thinking about starting a discussion within the group about knives as protrayed or sold on television and associated media Obviously this would include the info-mercials such as Cutlery Corner, Knives Live and the Hoppin' Mad Hillbilly. But I thin we could also discuss television shows and movies as well as the latest Bud-K catalog and even magazine articles.
That seems like a good idea. I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to add much except for a sporadic comment on knives in TV shows or movies. I'd be interested in following the discussion though.
Yea Tobias, I only get to watch one of the shows once in a while. What do you want to talk about concerning their show. Those guys are salesman and talk and express things fast to spur the quick buyer. They do a very good job for their boss and sell plenty in the time given. Those guys are okay, they don't mislead anyone.
We all know We are traditionalists in knife buying but this week I was gifted a CRKT. Cant wait to do a bit of a review on it for you. It seems to be a crossover from a tactical to a traditional
Wish I knew. It's a no name unbranded knife made is who know where. Has a modified sheepfoot/hawkbill blade that does wonders cutting rope and cardboard. It gets a lot of use. Top two are Gerbers (an EZ out and Gator) Bottom one is Chinese made Sheffield frame lock. Also a very nice knife with smooth operations.
The knife below is a Meriden Knife Co. watch fob knife. It is gold filled, has a gold bail and monogram M. It is 2-3/8 long closed and has a blade 1-5/8". Meriden in business from 1917-1932. Any help on this as far as value, etc.?
Hog listed us this week in the forum area. I wanted to say thank you to EVERYONE here. I really like this area of IKC, it may not be about the brightest and the newest but it is certainly about the interesting. Everyone here has conributed and shared. I hope you all have as much fun with the different knives as we have had so far. THANK YOU ALL
BOX FULL OF KNIVES Creator Jan Carter...Assisted by iKC's own Tom White and Craig Henry
A big place for our smaller groups to call home with their fellow collectors. This group is always at or near tops in activity and something is always going on. Got a collection not in the mix? Add to the discussions and teach others what you long to collect!
Currently hosting discussions for the following: Scouts, Campers and Hobos....Marbles Brand....Camillus Knives...Moose Pattern Knives...Small Patterns.....Tacticals and Search and Rescue Knives....Bulldog Group///Taylor Brand Schrade & Smith & Wesson....Steel Warrior and other Frost Branded Knives...Rostfrei and other little known Global Brands....Fox and Hound.... Svord....Cutco Knives..Hardware and other store brand knives http://www.iknifecollector.com/group/odds-ends
All these groups are a great learning experience so if you want to know more about these knives, join and ask your questions. Our hosts will be happy to answer questions and deepen your knowledge!
Tobias Gibson
Billy those Bayonets are:
Pattern 1907, Mk1 "SMLE" Bayonet (Sword Bayonet)
The sword bayonet continued service in WWII especially among ANZAC forces who retained the SMLE rather than adopting No. 4 Enfield Rifle. While intimidating and impressive to look at, the blade was heavy and for some people this made it more difficult to sight the rifle when the bayonet was fixed. The bayonet dated from before WWI (1907) and remained relatively unchanged being manufactured by numerous companies in Britain and throughout the Commonwealth. The Indian Army produced a shorten version of the bayonet for use in their Army.
Overall length 21.75 inches (55.25 cm)
Blade Length 17 inches (43.2 cm)
From my page: LRDG- Weapons- Knives
Jan 9, 2012
Tobias Gibson
More Bayonets. The top one is my Spanish Mauser Bayonet for the M1893 Mauser Rifle used by the Spanish Army during the Spanish American War and on through the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s. It probably was also pressed into service by Axis forces. Many of them came to America after the Spanish Civil War as well as during and post WWII.
The Bottom is my US M7 Bayonet used with the M16 rifle and its variants until recent years.
Overall length: 21 inches,
Blade length: 15.5 inches.
Smooth wood handle (repaired)
Leather Scabbard with with metal throat and tip.
Un matched serial numbers
Bottom: M7 Bayonet made by BOC , NSN: 1095-00-073-9238.
Overall length: 11 3/8 inches
Blade length: 6 7/8 inches
Checkered Composition grip (held on by screws)
Scabbard: M8a1 made of fiberglass w/steel throat riveted to webbing with belt loop and M1910 belt hooks.
The M7 is the great, great, great grand child of the M4 bayonet which was the ugly cousin of the M3 trench knife. It was replaced by the M9 Bayonet.
The M8a1 scabbard dated to WWII and fit the M3 knife and M4 bayonet however post 1953 markings for the M8a1 scabbard differ from WWII issued M8 a1 scabbards.
Jan 9, 2012
Billy Oneale
Thanks for the info, Toby. great looking pics of your bayonets. Here is the only one I own. I believe it is Romanian.
Jan 9, 2012
Jan Carter
Billy,
That is realy cool
Jan 10, 2012
Featured
Craig Henry
Here's the only bayonet that I have left. I used to have a large collection of them.
Original date of bayonet is 1942 - 15" shortened to 10"
The army made no attempt to differentiate between the M1 bayonet and the shortened M1905.
Some collectors feel that the shortened bayonet did not enter service until too late to see much active combat in WW2, but the M1905E1 entered Ordnance channels in September 1943 and by the end of 1943 over 225,000 had entered the supply system, so the shortened type is certainly appropriate for any 1944 or later rifle.
Jan 11, 2012
Jan Carter
Craig,
Not only a great Bayonet but some good info too. Thanks
Jan 11, 2012
Tobias Gibson
Thanks Craig, That's a great photo. One thing I learned while working on my pages for theBritish Long Range Desert Group was American Ordinance, once approved was often in the front lines within weeks. Things were literally being put on ships and planes before the paint dried. It may not have shown up in every theater of operation or within every unit. but it was making it to the front and in battle often with the same month manufacturing began. On the other hand, some items never saw action in certain areas of operation or with certain units.
Also, even in WWI, soldiers in all Armies risked court martial by shortening the unwieldy sword bayonets simply because they learned quickly all that extra steel might look cool and nasty but ruined your ability to sight your rifle and was actually a hindrance in a bayonet fight, especially in the trenches.
Jan 11, 2012
Featured
Craig Henry
Thanks Toby.
I guess I should have mentioned, for a little tie-in with knife companies, that it was made by Utica Cutlery, and was shortened by Union Fork and Hoe Company.
Jan 11, 2012
Billy Oneale
Nice bayonet, Craig. Great picture.
Jan 11, 2012
Featured
Craig Henry
Thanks Billy!
Another side note; my helmet is an authentic WWII M1 helmet reconditioned and in the markings of the 327th Glider Infantry Regiment - "Bastogne Bulldogs" - of the 101st Airborne Division. A unit that always seems to gets overshadowed in the movies and books by the Parachute Infantry Regiment guys.
Jan 11, 2012
Tobias Gibson
Billy,
I'm guessing you may already kniw this but what the heck, I'll say it any way:
Originally the Glider infantry didn't get the Hazardous Duty or so-called Jump pay, because some bureaucrat compared arriving in a glider about the same as being trucked in. On top of that Glider troops didn't need to go to jump school. I'm not sure exactly when the philosophy changed but it was after they realized that Glider troops were taking about same if not higher casualties than troops who were jumping from planes.
A good chunk of jump qualified parachute types were not happy when the Glider troops got the hazardous duty pay. Apparently they also felt the glider troops were coming via Taxi.
Jan 12, 2012
Featured
Craig Henry
Yeah, there even were a couple of fights that broke out between the Glider and Para boys. BUT, all you have to do is read about what the 327th did in WWII to know why they got their WELL EARNED combat pay!
From the Airborne & Special Operations Museum, Fayetteville, North Carolina;
"Being a glider trooper was no picnic. Paratroopers got a parachute badge, extra pay, wore a distinctive uniform and had highly prized jump boots. Glider troops enjoyed none of these distinctions. Their duty was simple: ride an aircraft made of plywood, cloth and steel tubing into the teeth of the enemy air defenses, land and attack. One veteran paratrooper officer of the 82nd who was ordered to go into Normandy by glider on D-Day said upon landing, “These people don’t get paid enough.” The ride, he exclaimed, was far worse than a parachute jump. After Normandy, glider troops received hazardous duty pay, wore the same uniform as the paratroopers, had their own silver qualification badge and, best of all, got to wear jump boots."
Jan 12, 2012
Billy Oneale
Jan 12, 2012
Billy Oneale
Jan 12, 2012
tom white
glad to have some more new members ,thanks tom
Jan 13, 2012
tom white
sorry follks ain't been on much the wifes had a migrain since friday and ive been busy and ive been down with the crud thats to everyone on here posting pic.i'll chat more tommorrow...thanks tom
Jan 15, 2012
Billy Oneale
Moving on up, Jan , Tom. 32 members and growing here.
Jan 17, 2012
ken benson
I learned about the gliders when staioned at Ft Bragg in the early seventies, but do not recall the disputation about hazard pay. There place in history as brave troops is secure. Is this insignia no longer worn by our Troopers? Man I am old I am starting to realize. Is the service cap even worn?
Jan 18, 2012
Jan Carter
Billy, we do seem to be growing. Glad everyone has a place to discuss those important knives that dont have the biggest names in the industry. I have seen some very nice and intriguing knives and patterns in here. As well as history on how and what. Thank you all for sharing with us. I am an info junkie so bring it all on!!!
On that same note Ken...Parachute Infantry overseas cap patches, worn 1941-44. I found those dates at http://101airborneww2.com/insignia.html
great site BTW
Jan 19, 2012
tom white
good looking knives on here really do like mr. ivy. and thanks for two more peopl e that just joined,thanks tom
Jan 22, 2012
tom white
well it finally cleared up but more rain comeing it killing my flea markets,kinda tard of counting cars,and ,you ever tried to count rain drops.???? keep all kinds of knives rolling looking good a another new menber thanks tom if we ain;t friends send me a invite..like to meet new folks on here,see ya'll later .thanks tom
Jan 24, 2012
Jan Carter
Thomas, counting raindrops? Now that is an activity I have not tried LOL. It will clear up and they will have a bunch of new knives at the flea market for you. :)
Jan 24, 2012
Smiling-Knife
I am thinking of starting a pen knife group here. A very traditional and popular, but often overlooked, knife pattern. Any one else interested?
Feb 6, 2012
Tobias Gibson
Do you mean a discussion within Box Full of knives or a bonafide group? I think if you're looking at a bonafide group, you should cast the net a little wider and have a group called "small patterns" or Gents, lobsters, penknives, etc. I've got maybe 10-15 knives that are equal-end penknives but probably 50 or so that fit the classification of a Gentleman's knife.
Feb 6, 2012
Smiling-Knife
I wasn't sure about the level of interest so I was thinking of a discussion forum here along the lines of the Bulldog Group to start. Your idea to include a variety of small patterns including penknives, lobster, etc is a good idea. Thanks.
Feb 6, 2012
Tobias Gibson
Smiling Knife, I'm in. Not sure about others
Feb 6, 2012
In Memoriam
Robert Burris
I'm not familar with smaller knives but I would like to see and learn more about them. Sooo that means I'm in...lol
Feb 6, 2012
Jan Carter
Smiling-Knife,
Start one right here. If it grows we can always get you a regular group and move your stuff over. I think smaller knives is a great idea
Feb 6, 2012
Tobias Gibson
I'm just waiting for the launch. Already got pics and descriptions lined up.
Feb 6, 2012
In Memoriam
Robert Burris
I found a vintage Moose knife for sale but I have no idea if the knife is worth what he is asking. I guess thats a problem for everyone, if you have nothing to judge it against.
Feb 9, 2012
Tobias Gibson
I'm thinking about starting a discussion within the group about knives as protrayed or sold on television and associated media Obviously this would include the info-mercials such as Cutlery Corner, Knives Live and the Hoppin' Mad Hillbilly. But I thin we could also discuss television shows and movies as well as the latest Bud-K catalog and even magazine articles.
Anyone game?
Feb 13, 2012
Smiling-Knife
That seems like a good idea. I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to add much except for a sporadic comment on knives in TV shows or movies. I'd be interested in following the discussion though.
Feb 13, 2012
In Memoriam
Robert Burris
Yea Tobias, I only get to watch one of the shows once in a while. What do you want to talk about concerning their show. Those guys are salesman and talk and express things fast to spur the quick buyer. They do a very good job for their boss and sell plenty in the time given. Those guys are okay, they don't mislead anyone.
Feb 14, 2012
tom white
i think last time i looked we had 32 know 37 thanks for joining tom
Feb 16, 2012
Jan Carter
We all know We are traditionalists in knife buying but this week I was gifted a CRKT. Cant wait to do a bit of a review on it for you. It seems to be a crossover from a tactical to a traditional
Feb 17, 2012
Jan Carter
Feb 17, 2012
Tobias Gibson
Oh, I've got a few tacs.
Feb 17, 2012
Billy Oneale
Feb 17, 2012
Tobias Gibson
Wish I knew. It's a no name unbranded knife made is who know where. Has a modified sheepfoot/hawkbill blade that does wonders cutting rope and cardboard. It gets a lot of use. Top two are Gerbers (an EZ out and Gator) Bottom one is Chinese made Sheffield frame lock. Also a very nice knife with smooth operations.
Feb 17, 2012
Mel Jones
Feb 20, 2012
Mel Jones
The knife below is a Meriden Knife Co. watch fob knife. It is gold filled, has a gold bail and monogram M. It is 2-3/8 long closed and has a blade 1-5/8". Meriden in business from 1917-1932. Any help on this as far as value, etc.?
Feb 20, 2012
tom white
just stopped by to check everthing out thanks for the 5 new members keep people come and showing your knives ,thanks tom
Feb 27, 2012
In Memoriam
Robert Burris
Yep, Tom, this is a popular group. Thanks, for helping Miss Jan get it started.
Mar 2, 2012
Jan Carter
It's a nicely diverse group, I hope ya'll are having fun here
Mar 5, 2012
Jan Carter
Mel,
Still doing some research to see if I can find out more on that Meriden
Mar 6, 2012
Jan Carter
I did find something interesting about the company
the article shows that the company was viable in 1896
http://www.knife-expert.com/1898.txt
Mar 6, 2012
tom white
good looking knife donnie crkt its a looker
Mar 7, 2012
Mel Jones
Thanks, Jan, that is an interesting article. Lots of history. I haven't found much on Meriden either, but at least I can somewhat date the knife.
Mar 7, 2012
Jan Carter
Mel,
Your welcome. I am still searching to see what I can find
Mar 7, 2012
Jan Carter
Hello everyone,
Hog listed us this week in the forum area. I wanted to say thank you to EVERYONE here. I really like this area of IKC, it may not be about the brightest and the newest but it is certainly about the interesting. Everyone here has conributed and shared. I hope you all have as much fun with the different knives as we have had so far. THANK YOU ALL
BOX FULL OF KNIVES Creator Jan Carter...Assisted by iKC's own Tom White and Craig Henry
A big place for our smaller groups to call home with their fellow collectors. This group is always at or near tops in activity and something is always going on. Got a collection not in the mix? Add to the discussions and teach others what you long to collect!
Currently hosting discussions for the following: Scouts, Campers and Hobos....Marbles Brand....Camillus Knives...Moose Pattern Knives...Small Patterns.....Tacticals and Search and Rescue Knives....Bulldog Group///Taylor Brand Schrade & Smith & Wesson....Steel Warrior and other Frost Branded Knives...Rostfrei and other little known Global Brands....Fox and Hound.... Svord....Cutco Knives..Hardware and other store brand knives
http://www.iknifecollector.com/group/odds-ends
All these groups are a great learning experience so if you want to know more about these knives, join and ask your questions. Our hosts will be happy to answer questions and deepen your knowledge!
Mar 7, 2012