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Comment by stephen tungate on October 22, 2011 at 12:22

wow thats deep man...

Comment by Shlomo ben Maved on October 22, 2011 at 9:17

If you are basing your decision on an embargo because of labour laws and working conditions/pay, child, prisoner and pregnant workers being used and abused etc. then NEVER is Ok.

 

I do not "knowingly" purchase anything "Made in Chi-Comm" but will gladly purchase—and do so quite often, from Republic of (Taiwan).

 

The items are being made to the strict parameters established by the knife company, et al and are tested to make sure those standards are met...It has nothing to do with the quality of the goods made (as there is some, nay many, items that are superb) but it lies in the labour (practices/wages/working conditions etc) used in producing those item...At least that's so in my case.

 

Thankfully the Occidental companies have not transferred their entire production over to China (as of yet) so alternatives, within the same company, can be purchased.

 

I collected SOG Knives, had the whole collection and had ordered the brand new—at that time—Jungle Warrior and a few other models to complete that year's purchases and maintain a complete collection...When they arrived, only then did I know they were Chi-Comm made and I was put into a major—near catastrophic—dilemma...Do I maintain my complete collection or stop there and only purchase those models not Chi-Comm made?  I now, still collect SOG but I check where the item is made and order (or not) accordingly and I have resolved myself that I don't need every model available.

 

I also won't buy from North Korea, Vietnam or Cuba although with the latter, having been in the travel business, I had to visit there three times (as each new area opened up) and I/we sent quite a number of clients there for vacations but I/we would try to convince them to go to a non-communist island instead but the prices and amenities offered were (and still are) extremely hard to compare with let alone beat.

 

When China goes full bore capitalist, democratic and adapts a somewhat Westernized Work Ethic and Laws—which I predict that will happen within ten to fifteen years—I'll then start to buy from them...Until that time, I can manage to live fully and completely without their products tainting my shelves…If everyone refused their products—full blown embargo—then their downfall would probably and quite possibly be sooner…Once they’re gone, so will fall Vietnam and North Korea and Cuba is just poised for revolt/political change and are just awaiting the death of Fidel Castro.

 

Comment by Chris Stookey on October 8, 2011 at 17:53

Overall, I agree with Kent. I love my country and prefer to buy American made products for the reasons that I listed in my original posting. I appreciate Kent's response. At a certain point, either we're clear about our own convictions or we're not. Of course, convictions aren't always simple things...and, as a result, aren't easy to articulate or "finalize". And...often, the stronger those convictions, the more others will be disturbed by them. Ironically, they needn't be bothered by another person's strong convictions! Halicon, as an example, has some particularly strong convictions about the hobby we share. I've watched people get offended by how directly he states his opinion. That they are bothered by his convictions is ridiculous! They should see them as a necessary and valuable point of contrast...and one that can provide a fascinating education!

 

Personally, I've never had a problem with people being proud...even to the extent of being "tribal"...about their own native country (American or otherwise). More directly stated; I want each country to retain it's own identity, history and culture. I want each country to be different. I truly enjoy the differences and contrasts that exist through that kind of diversity. I only object when the differences can't co-exist (Palestine and Israel are probably the best modern example of what I'm referring to).

One of the points that I was trying to make in the original blog posting was that I buy American (as a majority...not to the point of exclusivity) to support my fellow Americans. I will, of course, buy a foreign-made knife (regardless of origin) if I like it. America, though, will always receive the benefit of most of my spending. I really wish that more clothing companies, furniture companies, electronics and many other things were still made in this country. Most of those industries have seen manufacturing move overseas...TO THE POINT OF EXCLUSIVITY. I don't like that. Do I buy an Asian-made TV or computer? Sure. I've searched far and wide...and there isn't much available that allows me to do otherwise. Do I like that the purchase price of those items is made "more reachable" via foreign-based manufacturing? To an extent...but again...NOT TO THE POINT OF EXCLUSIVITY. I think that this country made a catastrophic mistake in letting so much of our native manufacturing migrate out of the USA. Balance is important in life, in economics...and in survival. This country has lost it's "balance"; economically, politically and spiritually.

As much as I enjoy people from other countries...their opinions, their culture, their history...and so much more...I will put America "first". That's the way that I feel. This may bother some of our community members from other countries. To that I say; don't be offended...I'm not saying that America is a "better" country than wherever you are from. I'm not touting American "exceptionalism" or some such supremacy-based garbage. Depending upon where you are from, I may actually believe that your country does a variety of things better than we do in this country. Beyond that, I would expect you to put your country before America. In fact, I endorse you doing so! Be proud of your history, your culture, you uniqueness! Protect it! Do the world a favor and don't let your "core" erode! There is absolutely nothing wrong with you having a sense of patriotism and national pride! I value YOU feeling that way and truly hope that you'll do what you can to preserve your country's identity! If your country was just like America, the world would be the lesser for it! Not because America is "screwed up"; BECAUSE WE NEED OUR CONTRASTS...and most of those contrasts make the world an incredibly beautiful place! People...and countries...absolutely can co-exist WITHOUT SACRIFICING who and what they are. They don't HAVE to embrace another country's differences within their own society in order to coexist with that other entity! Why people

Comment by KENT GABLE on October 7, 2011 at 16:05

My, my. Haven't we become the politically correct bunch? So politically correct I'm not sure I can understand what you are trying to say? However, what I said before stands. I like buying American made products and I love my country. If some of y'all are offended by that statement, that's just too bad!

If my love of this country and desire to see it succeed in a world economy means I have a "tribal take" then so be it. I hope that is plain enough?

 

Comment by Billy Oneale on October 2, 2011 at 22:06

Well stated response, Chris. Halicon brought out some important observations since he is not from America.

Comment by Jan Carter on October 2, 2011 at 19:20

Again Chris,

Very well stated! It is always nice to learn information regarding the various knife companies.  You should not have heartburn over the Fallkniven info.  A good quality knife is just that...no matter where it was manufactured

Comment by Chris Stookey on October 2, 2011 at 15:04

First, a hearty "thank you" to each of you that responded to this posting. This is just the kind of interesting discussion that we all need (at least from time to time). Additionally, I'll hand out an individual "thanks" to Halicon. I was unaware that Fallkniven knives were being made in Japan...though, candidly, I don't have an ounce of heartburn over that. One of the things that I hoped would come out of this posting is an opportunity for us all to learn something that we didn't already know. Thanks to Halicon, that goal is reached.

 

I've stated repeatedly, that I have many Japanese knives. Most of the Japanese knives that I have feature super consistent quality...and the level of that quality is usually very good. I think that I covered this topic reasonably well in the "Where does that knife come from?" blog.  Another thing that I like about Japanese made knives is that they are typically priced at a level befitting their quality...which is to say that the pricing is on par with like brands from the US and Germany.

 

I think Jan made a wonderful and extremely necessary point of distinction when she talked about why she felt that it was OK for Great Eastern Cutlery to make product (in this country) and sell it under the Tidioute and Northfield brands. Both Tidioute and Northfield are the names of long-extinct knife companies. She indicated this in her response and I completely echo the reasoning that she so clearly articulated. In the case of Schrade, Camilus and Marble...we have a very different scenario in that the bodies of those companies hadn't even been dead long enough to cool before some opportunistic individual realized that he could cash in on their hard earned name-recognition. As far as I'm concerned, there is a HUGE difference between what GEC has done with Tidioute and Northfield...and what Taylor Brands has done with Schrade. They are further apart than proverbial "night and day".

 

I found Halicon's last response to be a very compelling one. I really enjoyed reading it...and I'd like to touch on a couple of things that he brought up. In his response, one of the comments he made was that it seemed as if we (Jan, Kent and I) were viewing the Chinese government as a single unit. Actually, in my positing, I didn't comment upon the Chinese government at all. Not that I don't have an opinion on it...but I specifically avoided that topic because I felt that to go into that would take away from some points that I felt were more specifically relevant. Frankly, my knowledge of the Chinese government...and Chinese political history... is so tiny that I don't feel that I can credibly voice an opinion on how they operate. However, I will offer up a somewhat relevant opinion that I feel "ok" about voicing; the Chinese government...and it's various departments/ministries...seem to recognize the importance of enabling Chinese business. They, I suspect, take it a bit too far (a small look into the environmental impact of Chinese business is what spurred this sentence)...but I think that it is important for each country to recognize the importance of maintaining some level of native manufacturing.

 

The second comment that Halicon made...that I found quite interesting...was one concerning an almost "tribal take" that some people have on this subject and that they overlook the fact that some of the people laughing "all the way to the bank" are the very ones that developed the brand in question. I expected someone to bring this up...because it is VALID. So here's my take on this part of his posting:

 

* Too much of America's native (I'm not speaking of Indians) manufacturing base has been transferred overseas. The good news for the countries those companies chose as new manufacturing sites...is that they now benefit from what this country once had. The bad news for this country is that it has created an employment deficit the likes of which was foretold

Comment by Jan Carter on October 1, 2011 at 18:05

Halicon,

Speaking only for myself here.  Exactly what my original response said was

1)  So I really do not have a problem with a company name being purchased. 

2) my issue would come from not being told where the knife is being manufactured...Making an informed decision to buy imported is one thing, being surprised when you get the knife is another

 

As was stated in the article previous  to this.  I try to buy American because I want to keep the jobs that create the materials and the product here.  My pride in America is strong and may have something to do with coming from a military family.  I lived many years in the far east and have traveled extensively. I begrudge NO ONE the right to make a profit off hard work.  Many members of my personal tribe died protecting the belief that this is a great country and one where personal choice matters.  I stand by that belief

Comment by Halicon on October 1, 2011 at 12:28

Jan, Kent, Chris. Do you realize how corrupt the Chinese government actually is? You're looking at it as if it's a single unit. This is far from the reality. The corruption runs deep in their ranks and there is many more than just one party having their paws in the deals that are made.

American companies are being "forced" to produce their knives in China is also off. Did the Chinese drag them to come and produce their knives there? No, they earn the most having Chinese workers make their knives, this holier than thou mentality of American brands is getting quite ridiculous to be honest.

 

You have many great brands that people shed their entire lives over to make a name for but the very reason that you continue to see Chinese knives on the shelves is none other than the fact people continue to buy them.

That you are seeing newly produced Schrade knives is because they bought the name, they haven't done anything illegal whatsoever yet you treat it as such, why is that? They're playing the game and you're far from the only country in the world suffering to outsourcing.

 

Chris mentioned he's using Fallkniven knives, Swedish brand right? Wrong, the whole knife is made by a Japanese company with Fallkniven only putting their own brand on them. But even so why would it matter? Sweden has the iron ore and Japan has the production capacity so they play together and both parties benefit.

As far as I know Japan belongs to "Asia" so that would put them together with the Chinese and should thus be subject to some well-deserved hate. The only reason I can think of why this isn't the case is because the higher-ups played their cards well.

 

I have probably stirred up some feelings with this post, I have absolutely nothing against America. My gripe is with the almost tribal take many have when in reality the ones that first got the knives to be manufactured somewhere else is the very owner/creator/man or woman in power at the time which also happens to usually be of the same nationality, and -they- are the ones that are laughing all the way to the bank after we have given them money.

Comment by Jan Carter on September 30, 2011 at 18:20

Please understand that I harbor no ill will toward the Chinese people but their government has got to be laughing at us all the way to the bank.

 

your correct

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