Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Robert G. Mitchell on March 27, 2011 at 20:53

Well I guess I love carbon steel as much as most, and maybe more than others because carbon steel is the workingman’s steel, a blade that does the work, and comes back for more. Easy to sharpen, and easy to cut; always there and never gives up! No I’m no poet just a guy who’s been around this steel pretty much all my life. My dad was a chef ran a diner and a bar, cut all his own meat, prepped all his own veggies and cooked all his own dishes.

 

So I have a big love for not only carbon steel, but for drop forged carbon steel blades. Why because they are totally cool, cut like a demon, and can hold an edge.

 

Here’s the thing very few people are doing this type of steel today. Takes way too much work for what you get from the process, here’s a couple of carbon steel drop forged blades from Linder, Solingen Germany for your consideration.

 

Not bad for over thirty years ago, to bad we can’t find much of it today don’t you think?

Permalink Reply by J.J. Smith III on March 30, 2011 at 1:10

Of all the carbon bladed knives I've got, this one is 'bout my favorite.

Permalink Reply by J.J. Smith III on March 30, 2011 at 1:13

Carried this one around 30 years ago.

Permalink Reply by J.J. Smith III on March 30, 2011 at 12:26

Now "That's a knife".

In MemoriamPermalink Reply by Robert Burris on March 30, 2011 at 12:34

I like it. I like it alot! Great sheath too.

Permalink Reply by Halicon on April 1, 2011 at 10:26

Robert Mitchell, carbon steel is the workingmans steel? I have no idea where you got that phrase from but you must have had horrible experiences with alloy steels.

 

It's a fact that in order to work harder woods the best performance and finish is achieved by an alloy blade, the only difference being that it can't finish down to the same level of carbon steel.

 

Take plane blades for example, a WS#1 plane (lets assume they are properly forged) easily reaches below 10 microns. With an alloy blade it's quite hard. Two properly adjusted ones should shave at 3-5 for the carbon blade and 6-10 for the alloy - that's the only difference apart from the alloy being harder to sharpen.

 

We can't compare stuff like 5160, O1 and such to what godforsaken cocktail of an alloy Case uses or other low-quality alloy steels. Those carbon steels cost very, very much more than what you guys are comparing it with.

 

Also, how come no one is mentioning that carbon blades can affect the taste sensation in food preparation? Sometimes it's the sole reason the chef chooses to use say a Blue steel #2 knife instead.

Not all alloys have to be either crap or a HSS alloy steels, the ones I mentioned has to be forged out just like any other carbon steel.

 

I'm no advocate of alloys at all since I prefer carbon steels myself but you all need to correct your comparisons to something along the  same cost.

Permalink Reply by Robert G. Mitchell on April 1, 2011 at 20:28

No, I’ve had no traumatic experiences due to the types of steel I’ve come in contact with that I’m aware of. As to the comment “Workingman’s steel means steel used by working men like; “AISI 1010 is a low-carbon alloy appropriate in sheet and strips for deep drawing, carbonized and structural applications. AISI 1010 is ideal for the automobile industry, where it frequently is used for auto bodies, fenders, and smaller parts including pans and transmission covers”. I could go on without end to the uses of carbon steels for the workingman; that’s what I was trying to get at. So then I tried once again, without much success to move to my favorite type of carbon steel for knives which happens to be drop forged, and gave a couple of examples which I thought were pretty good. Oh sorry, once again; drop forged. “Forging is superior to casting or machining bar stock since the metal’s natural grain flow is made to conform to the shape of the product. Castings have an isotropic grain structure and, for a given part, may be as strong in compression loads, but forgings are superior in tensile and shear loads due to the utilization of the grain flow”. Didn’t think I needed to go into that much detail, but I guess sometimes you need to. Anyway I think the knives I listed speak for themselves, fine examples of drop forged carbon steel blades. Maybe I’ll reconsider before I post again, thought this would be a bit lighter.

In MemoriamPermalink Reply by Robert Burris on April 1, 2011 at 21:22

Hey guys, the last thing we need is to have a group that is confrontational about which steel is better or which tempering or forging process is the best. There are many different grades, types and classes of stainless (alloy) steel. Some are used for such things as kitchen sinks, cooking utensils... The one that is used for cutlery is martensitic. There are alot of cutlery stainless steels that are used in machinery to cut wood, steel and other materials. Most of these are useless in hand knives.

We should remember when we speak of a knife steel, that there are alot of people, making knives, out of one or another and their livelihoods depend on their knife products. So if we prefer one or the other, we should be careful not to talk down to one particular type. Let's just talk good about the type of steel we prefer and its forging process.

Let's just have fun here! :) Rob

Permalink Reply by Robert G. Mitchell on April 1, 2011 at 22:32

Sorry guys I'm out.

 

All the best, Robert

Permalink Reply by Halicon on April 2, 2011 at 4:41

Ah I see, you mean "working man" in that sense. Yes, then I understand you entirely. I beg your pardon Mitchell but I was on the line of belief that you meant carbon is best for someone making a living on what they cut (literally).

 

My experiences with the heavy industry steel cocktails is basically zero, all I deal with is like Robert mentions, martensite. But the steel you use to cut rocks, steel, iron and other stuff is completely different, I agree with that.

 

But I don't see those steels making any kind of entries into the knife world, as far as my knowledge has taught me, martensite cuts organic matter the best. Even better when cold-forged and the grain gets spherodized (yep, this is the kind of talk I wanted to get going lol), add in age-hardening for a few years and you have a great steel.

 

I really wish that you know that I don't intend to "challenge" your knowledge or your experiences. I have mine and you have yours - mine are based in Asian cutlery and the cold-forging methods they have developed there, yours are clearly with the western types and also a very good knowledge of grain structure and it's effects aswell as industry steels which is something I know close to zero about.

 

I was discussing with you, not arguing. Please reconsider on leaving this topic because you got me quite wrong and I suppose I could have put my words better. What I on the other hand did want to convey is the last few words you wrote; "Not bad for over thirty years ago, to bad we can’t find much of it today don’t you think?"

 

We still can! That's what I was getting at by bringing in those steels as examples, because every steel I mentioned is one that is handforged, cold-forged and the performance is simply great. The trade of forging in the traditional manner by hand-hammering a lukewarm piece of steel is one that many smiths strive to perfect, especially in Japan.

I wrote my response to you under the impression that you had an experience of bad stainless steels - that is my mistake and I want to apologize for assuming so right off the bat.

 

Other than that, I hope you guys liked the little info I gave on Jap steels. I have absolutely loved every minute I have spent experiencing these handforged knives from across the pond but it was one thing I had a hard time getting accustomed to - their labelling.

And also insider information on what smiths you can trust and which ones you can't. Some claim that they forge by hand in order to reach that stage of perfection that we carbon lovers all want (Robert Burris's blade from Matthew is a prime example, stunning blade you got there Robert! That's cold-forging baby!)

 

I can't really say much more. I'm terribly sorry you got offended Mitchell but I guess my very nature is offensive to some.

Like Burris mentioned too, my livelihood depends on super-tough traditionally forged alloy steels in order to to be able to cut the things I need cut. If a carbon blade could cut in those kinds of wood I would -absolutely- use one, but it rips the edge apart basically.

The kind of alloys aren't HSS varieties though which matters quite a bit since it's possible to cold-forge it instead of a fully machined steel which as Mitchell correctly states, is inferior because the grain of the steel isn't refined.

 

The biggest reason I wrote that reply was because historically we have some incredible alloy steels. Steels that perform close to what a carbon steel does but is also a bit stainless and safe to use in bad conditions (for example I cut wet rock slices with a blue steel #1 knife, it can take the mess, white steel #1 would oxidize almost right away.

 

Have fun and enjoy your experiences everyone, I'm off to polish some steel. :)

In MemoriamPermalink Reply by Robert Burris on April 2, 2011 at 21:10

We might need to start a discussion on knife blade forgeing for all knife steels. Carbon, alloys, damascus and what ever makes a knife blade. It might help us all to learn and see what others have to say about it. 

Permalink Reply by Halicon on April 7, 2011 at 23:08

I'm sorry that I turned this carbon-specific group conversation more into forging, Robert.

 

You have probably noticed already but once I get started I have a hard time shutting up. In my mind alloys and carbon steels are probably much closer to eachother than for most people here.

You have to spend some time working wood traditionally and observe what kind of steel finishes what wood better and so on which is the way I built my "duty" kit.

 

I'm all for opening up the discussion, give out sources and what steels that are traditionally forged which is like night and day compared to factory knives.

For a tool or a knife it can be the difference between life and death whether it was forged with or without coal which we know produces that black oxide surface that protects our purified carbon knives.

 

For example, there is no doubt in my mind that the knife Robert owns made by Matthew (uhm what was his surname, he's an excellent smith and great at bringing out the edge too) could split production knives in half and hardly suffer any damage if any at all.

 

That's the case with my traditionally handforged coal fired blades. I can go from cutting straight into factory 1095 steel and then proceed to put a mirror surface on softwood.

I truly wish for more to experience and appreciate this olden-day type of cutlery.

 

In those days steel wasn't easily acquired and they were forced to adopt extremely difficult forging techniques that purified the steel and optimized the alignment of the grain which yielded results that not only improved the lifetime of the craft because the grain became finer - but the molecule bonds got tighter and as the knife dulled (this is the edge loosing it's serrations), but because of the improved alignment the serrations simply chipped off without dragging any surrounding steel with it.

That's edge durability and sharpness, count in the protective black oxide layer from the coal and the effects of hammering the steel while cold in order to bring out more martensite and you have something that is pure pleasure to use.

 

So please, whether it be western-made or Asian-made, sick pure carbon or heavy alloy please give it a shot. Find a smith that forged in the traditional way and check out a small cheap blade, I'm absolutely certain that you will love it no matter what steel it is. :)

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• Next ›
• Page