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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on March 22, 2011 at 19:32

Jim,

 

Check out this article

 

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/current_knotes.htm

 

look about 3/4 of the way down under the heading THE COAST GUARD MARKED KNIFE.  Apparently it just noted a change in the pattern

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on March 22, 2011 at 21:12

The stamping  can also be seen on pg. 170 of Bernard Levine's 3rd edition. That listing has the stamping on a Camillus "Lifeboat Knife" .. but no explanation as to the "Q5" portion of the stamping !?!

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on March 22, 2011 at 21:16

Nice find Jan !!!

Jan Carter said:

Jim,

 

Check out this article

 

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/current_knotes.htm

 

look about 3/4 of the way down under the heading THE COAST GUARD MARKED KNIFE.  Apparently it just noted a change in the pattern

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Permalink Reply by Gerald Hines on March 23, 2011 at 0:55

I would suspect these knives were approved by Quartermaster#5 which would the USCG purchasing agent.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Child on March 23, 2011 at 6:55

Hey guys:

Jan, thanks for that link to Frank Trzaska's  www.usmilitaryknives.com -- after reading about the USCG knife I spent another 30 mins or so browsing around his pages.

 

Gerald, yeah, I too came up with the thought that the "Q" could stand for "Quartermaster" -- it's a nice fit for the situation.

 

Do you personally have any knowledge about there actually being a "#5" Quartermaster at the USCG??

 

My experience/knowledge is limited in this area. I have another similar, "Lifeboat" jack knife by Kutmaster. The obverse tang stamp on that knife reads: "APPROVED / U.S.C.G / 1944-796 / KUTMASTER / Utica, N.Y., U.S.A."  I was thinking that the "796" was maybe Kutmaster's pattern/model number, but it might also reference, maybe, a paragraph in the USCG's "purchase order" or similar.

 

I love a good mystery!

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Permalink Reply by Gerald Hines on March 23, 2011 at 11:14

Jim I have no knowledge of USCG, but i sent time in the Marines ordering part and everything went through the Quartermasters office.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Child on April 1, 2011 at 9:46

Gerald Hines said:

Jim I have no knowledge of USCG, but i sent time in the Marines ordering part and everything went through the Quartermasters office.

Yeah, I'm leaning toward the "Q" denoting "Quartermaster" -- I'd still like to hear from someone definitely about the number "5" -- ?? is there a fifth Quartermaster? ...maybe Class 5 supplies -- personnel tools vs. ship's supplies??

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Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on April 26, 2011 at 21:52

Class V is used for  Ammunition of all types, bombs, explosives, mines, fuses, detonators, pyrotechnics, missiles, rockets, propellants, and associated items.     Supply classes are almost always marked in Roman Numerals. The Class II store is normally where the pocket knives are sold, if they aren't sold in the PX/BX.    I can't say what class pocket knives fell into during WWII but since at least the 1960s they were  Class II-B, Ground Support Material.

 

While I have no way to no for sure, I'd bet the Q5 is a Camillus pattern number for the knife, Especially when you see  Kutmaster stamped 796 and the later Camillus Stainless Steel Camillus knives w/ can opener  were stamped S 702.  Again pure specualtion on my part.

 

I'll need to peruse those web pages.  What I can say is Michale Silvey's book, "Pocket knives of the United States Military sheds absolutely no light on the subject.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on April 27, 2011 at 16:35

Tobias.

That class information is interesting, thanks

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Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on April 27, 2011 at 17:01

Here is the short list for US military Supply Class codes:

 

Class I - Food, rations, and water

Class II – Clothing (includes Field gear, tentage, sleeping bags,  personal tools, etc.)

Class III - Petroleum, oils, and lubricants

Class IV - Fortification and barrier materials (including barbed wire and such

Class V – Ammunition (from grenades, bullets all they thru Nuclear bombs)

Class VI - Personal Items (Alcohol, cigarettes, etc.)

Class VII - Major End Items (Weapons, Weapons systems, Tanks, vehicles, nulcear Subs, air craft carrier, jets, etc.)

Class VIII - Medical supplies, and related medical repair parts and equipment

Class IX - Repair Parts (for any of the other class codes.)

Class X - Miscellaneous supplies

 

As you can well imagine, each class is further divided into numerous subcategories.  From what I remember (and it has been a while) Class X also included items procured from foreign military forces as well as from the local economy.

 

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Permalink Reply by Jim Child on May 18, 2011 at 10:13

Okay, I decided to go right to "the source" and emailed Frank Trzaska and asked him for some clarification about the "Q5": I'm pasting his reply here:

=============================

From: "Frank Trzaska" <#####@#######.net>

To: "Jim Child" <jimtheshepherd@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Info on the Camillus "1944 Q5

Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:36:41 -0400

Hello Jim,

The Q5 was a part of a numbering system used by Camillus in their accounting. All new orders when received were numbered with the knife pattern number, in this case 425 and the order number in this case Q5. In the WW II years they had the following orders I know of for the 425 pattern knife;

425L6     4/17/42

425L21    4/29/42

425L39    8/10/42

425Q5    11/22/43

425Q6    11/22/43

425Q14    2/18/44

425S3    11/27/44

 

The above are order dates, the actual production could have been for months depending on the size of the order.

 

L6 and L21 were the same specs.

L39 was for special chrome plated blades

Q5, 6, 14 and S3 were all the same specs.

 

I do not have copies of the early specs so can't tell you what the differences are. The notation on the Q5 is blade finish to be type "D" added by Dan Brown in 1944. There were steel liners on some knives so the early ones may be steel and the later ones brass but that is only a guess as I don't have it in front of me to tell you.

 

Hope that helps.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

=============================

At first, it seems incredible that a number from "the accounting department" would find its way to the tangs of knives that were going to sea ...off to serve their country. But, thinking about a bit more, could there have been anything simpler? I'd expect Camillus had the need to quickly identify knives that had been assembled with the alterations dictated by the new order/contract. 

We knife collectors would be inclined to call the "new" knives "Version 2" or somesuch. And then we'd have to keep track of the fact that the "Version 2" 425's had been made in compliance with the changes dictated by the new order from the USCG logged into the ledgers as "Q5 ...." So much more direct to just stamp the new knives "Q5"

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Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on May 18, 2011 at 11:49

Well that's about as definitive as you can get.  Thanks, Jim.

 

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