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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on December 1, 2015 at 19:24

When you get so far as to uncover the blade shape .. that would help tremendously. Especially if there exists a stamp @ the base of the blade. Detailed pics of decent resolution are also an aid .. Thank you .. for what you've posted. Any further detail will help.

I see an elongated shield .. possibly .. @ app the 1 cm mark .. matl = brass or perhaps whats loosely called nickel silver ??

Are there metal sections at the front & rear of the knife .. just the front .. none at all ?? If so .. are they the same material as the shield ?? They appear to be more oxidized than the shield .. can you confirm.

Brass or steel pins ??

App 7 ~ 8 cm (2.75" ~ 3.125") in length ??

Mid 1800's .. any closer than that  ?

Dale.

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Permalink Reply by Dave McMahan on December 1, 2015 at 20:28

Thanks Dale,

I'm adding some higher res photos of front and back.  Unfortunately the blade has rusted away. Overall length is around 4 inches. The scales (I used the wrong term above) appear to be tortoise shell, or possibly horn.  It is a fine-grained keratinous material when viewed under a microscope -- not wood, antler, or bone.  I believe that the pin is brass I believe, while the metal section (at least at one end) is ferrous.  The elongated shield appears to be brass or copper alloy.  The shipwreck occurred in 1813, so I was hoping that the style would fit.  There was a later camp down the beach aways.

D ale said:

When you get so far as to uncover the blade shape .. that would help tremendously. Especially if there exists a stamp @ the base of the blade. Detailed pics of decent resolution are also an aid .. Thank you .. for what you've posted. Any further detail will help.

I see an elongated shield .. possibly .. @ app the 1 cm mark .. matl = brass or perhaps whats loosely called nickel silver ??

Are there metal sections at the front & rear of the knife .. just the front .. none at all ?? If so .. are they the same material as the shield ?? They appear to be more oxidized than the shield .. can you confirm.

Brass or steel pins ??

App 7 ~ 8 cm (2.75" ~ 3.125") in length ??

Mid 1800's .. any closer than that  ?

Dale.

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on December 2, 2015 at 15:22

Dave- You are being modest- You are, in fact, the principal investigator of a multi-national team researching the wreck of the Russian frigate Neva and how 26 crew members managed to survive for almost a month in sub-arctic conditions until rescued.This is indeed a very important part of history and will receive my fullest inquiries. I have some thoughts on the matter, but will reserve them until I have more than conjecture.Thank you for the opportunity to help research a great historical find.To everyone else, Google Russian frigate Neva for a fascinating story.

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on December 2, 2015 at 16:22

Dave-I noticed a pronounced thickening in the handle (scale) area of the knife . Do you attribute the thickening to the encrustation or the widening of the scale material itself ??  Reason for asking, most, if not all, quill knives were very slimlline in design.Bulbous handles like that often indicate stag or horn.

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Permalink Reply by Dave McMahan on December 2, 2015 at 18:10

John,

Thanks for your kind words above.  It is indeed an interesting project.  My impression of the thickening is that it was due to encrustation, and that the knife was slim. I'm fairly certain that the scales were not stag or wood, as microscopically the material is very fine grained (tortoise? cow horn?). Unfortunately, I let the knife dry out and begin to crack before I realized what it was.  It was so heavily encrusted that we initially thought it was a copper nail, like others on the site.  I had to clean the encrustation (sand welded together by iron oxide) with a metal probe and it was very difficult to remove.  I may try to clean it a bit more with chemicals.

While I'd love for it to fit the time period of the wreck (1813), it's not a show stopper if it doesn't.  It appears that other folks, perhaps salvors, were camped at the site during the mid-19th century.  There was an intrusive hearth on one part of the site that appears to date from the mid-19th century -- and perhaps another later one.

Thanks again for your help with this.

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on December 3, 2015 at 16:27

I would say the "thickening" is a result of the oxidation process relative to the ferrous based material .. I've seen very similar before. It is quite likely the knife was approximately the same thickness through-out .. originally. i.e. Note how the liner bulges outward in the area where the "thickening" is. Something between the liners (broken end of blade .. perhaps) oxidized & expanded .. forcing liners to "bulge" outwards. Also .. a broken blade could account for it's being discarded. It would seem .. in a shipwreck survival camp scenario .. a good knife would be too highly valued to simply lose. 

Just my 2-cents ........


John McCain said:

Dave-I noticed a pronounced thickening in the handle (scale) area of the knife . Do you attribute the thickening to the encrustation or the widening of the scale material itself ??  Reason for asking, most, if not all, quill knives were very slimlline in design.Bulbous handles like that often indicate stag or horn.

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on December 3, 2015 at 17:29

Dave .. might I suggest .. checking w/ a lab that does environmental testing. Specifically .. salt spray testing of coated ferrous based material. I believe they'll instantly recognize the "bulging" present in the above posted pic .. 'n likely provide further insight.

I'm reasonably confident the different materials present in the knife oxidize @ different rates. i.e. higher ferrous content equates to faster rate of reaction. That's why the liners & shield display a lower level of oxidation.

On a personal note .. my daughter is a semester away from a bachelors in anthropology w/ minor in religion ..&.. will instantly progress to grad student.  Hopes to be involved in dig .. soon !!!

Dale.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on December 3, 2015 at 18:05

So basically what we are fairly certain of

Pins appear to be brass

scales are likely tortoise shell, or possibly horn

elongated shield appears to be brass or copper alloy

Shipwreck happened in 1812, a russian ship that had also been to England

OK, let's see if we can get our Russian knifemakers to give us some thoughts

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Permalink Reply by Dave McMahan on December 3, 2015 at 20:13

Good suggestion.  I'll try to track down someone who does environmental testing.  I'm visiting relatives in Tennessee right now, but will try to clean off more encrustation when I get back to Anchorage.  There may be other clues re. the thickening. I wish your daughter the best of luck with her degree!

Dave

D ale said:

Dave .. might I suggest .. checking w/ a lab that does environmental testing. Specifically .. salt spray testing of coated ferrous based material. I believe they'll instantly recognize the "bulging" present in the above posted pic .. 'n likely provide further insight.

I'm reasonably confident the different materials present in the knife oxidize @ different rates. i.e. higher ferrous content equates to faster rate of reaction. That's why the liners & shield display a lower level of oxidation.

On a personal note .. my daughter is a semester away from a bachelors in anthropology w/ minor in religion ..&.. will instantly progress to grad student.  Hopes to be involved in dig .. soon !!!

Dale.

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Permalink Reply by Dave McMahan on December 3, 2015 at 20:15

Yep -- that's pretty much it. Russian feedback would be great. Dave

Jan Carter said:

So basically what we are fairly certain of

Pins appear to be brass

scales are likely tortoise shell, or possibly horn

elongated shield appears to be brass or copper alloy

Shipwreck happened in 1812, a russian ship that had also been to England

OK, let's see if we can get our Russian knifemakers to give us some thoughts

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on December 10, 2015 at 17:29

Dave- I actually believe it is probably an English made jack knife. Likely a slim jack pattern or similar pattern.My reasons for believing this are the general shape and length and the long bar shield.I can't find any Russian knives fitting this description, and this was used in England and still period correct for the frigate shipwreck-Knives made in tortoise shell, mother of pearl, and other premium materials were considered upscale knives, and often featured that long bar shaped shield, so that they could be etched with the owners name or initials if desired.Quill knives did not have shields like this, that I can find an example of.The brass shield and brass pin indicate that the bolsters were probably also made of brass.This is a little odd, as they were normally sterling or nickel silver.However, brass might look pretty nifty with tortoise shell scales !!-Just a random thought-- Many tools on frigates or other war ships were made of brass to avoid sparks to accidently cause a spark around gunpowder. I might guess that with the high end materials and the brass fittings, possibly custom made for an officer of the ship. If you can expose any more of the actual knife itself, I will be more than happy to investigate further. 

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Permalink Reply by Dave McMahan on December 10, 2015 at 17:56

John, what you say makes a lot of sense. I would actually have been surprised if it turned out to be Russian. After 1803 the Russian settlements in Alaska were being supplied by British and American traders, as well as by Russian round the world ships that called in various ports. Thanks for all your help with this. I will talk to a conservator to see what can be done about cleaning the knife further. If we have any luck, I will send new photos.

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