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Locking folding knives, how strong is "strong enough"?
I apologize if this subject has been covered. I think most will agree that no lock on any folding knife should be considered strong enough for the knife to be considered as strong as a fixed blade. Given that assumption I think we can continue with lock strength requirements.
A few companies who have high claims to their lock strength have videos (or just claims) that a lock will hold up to 500lbs of force is applied to it. One company goes up to 1000lbs. I'm not really interested in this amount of strength. I'm never going to apply that much force to even a fixed blade. I would need to clamp the blade in a vise and get 5 of me to stand on the handle.
My expectation of a lock is very high. This is due to the fact that I have mainly been using knives that lock and the design expectations from the company are also high and their products live up to these expectations. Even in the less expensive models. The cost reduction is based on materials, fit & finish, etc. not the quality of the performance IMO. There are also lots of lock types with different reasons for possible failures. For the purposes of this discussion I'm thinking of a backlock since it is one of the most common knife locks.
In my opinion a lock should NEVER release accidentally. NEVER! The only way a locking folder lock should release without it being released by the user is for one or more parts in the knife to break. How much force it takes to break the knife is my concern. But if the lock releases under a lot more pressure than it takes to close a slip joint without breaking something, is that ok? Example: In a lockback knife if the angle of the lockbar sitting in the blade tang is not 90° there may be a problem. If the angle is 89° I'm sure it's ok but if it's 50° (estimate) the lockbar could be forced up just by putting force on the blade spine causing the lock to release as if you pressed on the lock button. So this would be considered a design flaw IMO. I recently purchased a knife where this would happen. It was replaced because the companie's opinion was the knife was flawed. I got another one and it seems fine for now. But maybe for some people this is "good enough" for a knife to be called a locking knife. Compared to a slip joint I mean. I still feel the knife lock will fail if I put a lot of pressure on the spine. I mean more force than you would ever apply during normal use. So, this lock I'm considering strong enough even though I don't feel it's as strong as other knives of the same size with the same lock that I own.
If someone buys a locking folder and feels it WILL STAY LOCKED NO MATTER WHAT, using a knife with that assumption may be less safe than using a slip joint that you know isn't supposed to stay locked. I think most locking folders come with a safety warning not to count on the lock 100%. Even though this is 100% true I feel sometimes warnings like this are to protect themselves from lawsuites when a lock fails and someone looses a couple of fingers. :)
Getting long winded. Summary: I think when a lock fails it should be because a part breaks or at least is rounded off drastically. On a lockback knife a lockbar of steel that is too soft might allow this over time. That's another thing. I don't mean when you test a knife once when you first buy it. I mean a knife that is still working after years of "normal" use. Of course the knife that is abused dramatically should not be required or expected to work for years.
I am wondering how other user's feel and ESPECIALLY how a manufacturer feels, resulting in the strength of their locks on knives that are supposed to LOCK.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on
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We may have talked around this but I am ready for a way deeper discussion Jack.
I think it's really important when dealing with knives to know for sure that blade will not close on you, if in fact it is why you are using it! I mean I understand a locking blade may not even be important for some. But if you use your knives this has to be a consideration.
There are horror stories about blades not locking properly so maybe we will hear some of that and some of what has been done to address concerns.
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Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on
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I have disassembled knives with these locks. Backlock, Spyderco CBBL (Caged Ball Bearing Lock) and liner locks. I think to REALLY be able to appreciate this issue is to watch a lock engaging and disengaging with one side off the knife. Having taken a Spyderco Manix2 apart I KNOW FOR A FACT that if the lock is clean and free from debris and the lock engages properly and there is nothing wrong with all the parts THERE IS NO WAY the lock will fail. That's a lot of if's but none that are hard to accomplish. Just keep your knife clean and open it properly. The ONLY way the blade will close without disengaging the lock on purpose is for one of the hardened steels (backbar and/or ball bearing) to break and that will not happen. Well, SHOULD not happen. I even replaced my steel bearing with a ceramic one to make the knife open/close smoother. It didn't help much. The liner lock is easily seen and understood without disassembling the knife. You can see some of the backlock area on the tang but not the important spot on the bottom of the lockbar. I have one backlock knife that the locking spot on the tang is rounded (intentionally from the factory I assume) and another knife (different brand) that has a nice sharp 90 degree corner. I believe the sharp corner on the tang is a much better design. I do want to emphasize that I AM NO EXPERT. If I have an opinion and it can be challenged I'm eager to listen and possibly change my mind. Anyway I believe the knife with the rounded tang MAY disengage if I put a LOT of pressure on the blade spine. I'm not going to do that because I'm happy with this knife as is and I'll never use it for work that is even close to hard use. If I try to make the lock fail I may make it not work at all. So in this case this knife's lock is "strong enough" even though I don't think it's in top shape. My other lockback knives have a SOLID feel where this one doesn't. Of course, "feel" is hard to explain or understand when someone else explains it.
I think one thing that is in my mind is as one who has been using primarily knives with exceptional quality locks and now getting into a world of slip joint traditional knives the lockup demands may not be as stringint from companies who make mostly slip joint knives. I have no idea if this is true. It's just a thought I have had. I have never owned a Case that locked or any other traditional knife with a lock. I think someone here showed a stockman with a lock a month or two ago. More of these would be great I think. But as you said some people aren't concerned at all about a locking knife. Most of my life I never had a locking knife.
I'm eager also to hear other's opinions and hopefully the horror stories won't cause nightmares. :)
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FeaturedPermalink Reply by Craig Henry on -
I remember a discussion like this on the Spyderco forum years ago that started a HUGE argument!! LOL! I ain't commenting! LOL!
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I'm on the Spyderco forum quite a bit. Those "one lock lovers" can be as bad as the "one steel lovers". lol I have seen those arguments. I'm just wondering how strong anyone thinks a lock should be to be considered a lock vs slip joint. The $3 knives that are supposed to lock are just about as strong as some slip joint knives and that's ok for some people. Other people believe a locking folder should be as strong as a fixed blade. I like any lock as long it is reliable, strong and can be released with one hand. Cold Steel's triad lock is a great lock IMO. Not a big fan of the rest of the knife though with most models. I do like the mini-lawman. Very strong lock on a solid, little, what I'd call a hard use folder. Actually the knives are pretty good, just not my cup of tea with most of the models.
Craig Henry said:I remember a discussion like this on the Spyderco forum years ago that started a HUGE argument!! I ain't commenting! LOL!
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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on
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awww, Craig feel free to comment, we dont do arguments here. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and yours is valuable. I know you have been around lots of knives for a considerable amount of time.
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FeaturedPermalink Reply by Craig Henry on -
Well, first and foremost, a knife is a cutting tool (that was the first comment that started an argument). If it has a lock it should be able to stand up to a fair amount of stress without unlocking or breaking. How much stress/abruse? That is where the real heated arguments start! I'd say most uses a knife is used for, with a fair amount of extra room, it should stay locked and secure. If you stick it in a tree and hang off of it, it might break, especially for your average factory lockback. Most any lockback will fail at some point....like if you use it to hang an engine hoist off of it. (The engine hoist comment started a attack on me that I thought I almost had to be afraid of my life!! I then quit the Spyderco forum)
If I ever feel the lock is not completely secure and finished with the best machining, fit and tight lockup, I would not buy/keep it.
That's it for me. Is anyone looking at me with daggers? I think I went far enough.....I'll go get under my rock now. Let the arguments begin. LOL!
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I don't see anything wrong with high expectations. Especially on something like a knife lock. It is a safety issue after all. For that matter expectations are like opinions. Everyone has them. They are our own and when it comes to buying a product like, well,,, let's say a knife, it's our money so our opinion and expectations can't be governed by anyone else. I have seen some folks on the Spyderco forum take offense at what some people say. Couldn't explain it if I tried. I like to leave those conversations alone. Disagree? No biggie. Get the other opinion and decide what we will and don't get mad. That works most of the time. Oh well.
Well, first and foremost, a knife is a cutting tool. If it has a lock it should be able to stand up to a fair amount of stress without unlocking or breaking. How much stress/abruse? That is where the arguments start! I'd say most uses a knife is used for, with a fair amount of extra room, it should stay locked and secure. If you stick it in a tree and hang off of it, it might break, especially for your average factory lockback. Most any lockback will fail at some point....like if you use it to hang an engine hoist off of it. (The engine hoist comment started a attack on me that I thought I had to be afraid of my life!! I then quit the Spyderco forum)
If I ever feel the lock is not completely secure and finished with the best machining, fit and tight lockup, I would not buy/keep it.
That's it for me. Is anyone looking at me with daggers? I think I went far enough.....I'll go get under my rock now. Let the arguments begin. LOL!
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FeaturedPermalink Reply by Craig Henry on -
I agree. But do you ever notice how some people have a way of making their "opinion" sound like fact that is written in stone? LOL!! And everyone says each person is entitled to their opinion, but then go on to try to make you look like an idiot? LOL! That's why sometimes I think it's easier and less stressful to stick to "fluff" posts.....especially at my age.....I have to keep my blood pressure down! LOL!
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Tonight on KnivesLive TV the fellas showed a Spyderco knife that was made not to lock or just barely hold I guess. Now supposedly this knife was made for sale in the UK where they have severe locking blade restrictions. I guess if your blade locks its more dangerous maybe?
Had no idea that knives were sold , specifically made to perform this way. So it's coming down the production line and boom ok thse get a full lock and go to USA and these get no lock and go to the UK?
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FeaturedPermalink Reply by Craig Henry on -
I guess Spyderco still makes the UK Penknife. It's a non-locking version of their knife.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Noot on
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Here's my thoughts on the subject.
1) If you have the explicit NEED for a knife that won't fold on your fingers, get a fixed blade.
2) If you're using a knife in such a way that it'll fold on your fingers, in most cases you're using it wrong. The only knives that could happen to are knives that are meant for a HARD STABBING motion. If this is what you do with it....if possible get a fixed blade. If not, take GREAT care not to put force on the side of the blade that will close the knife. I do this even WITH locking blades and I've not had a knife fold on me (even a slipjoint) since I forgot to lock my opinel over 20 years back.
3) A folding knife is just that.....folding. I trust no lock completely. I LIKE some locks better than others (I have a preference for lockbacks for instance) but a knife that was designed to fold will simply always have an earlier breaking point than a blade that wasn't designed to fold.
4) It doesn't matter what TYPE of lock is done....as long as it's done WELL. I've seen both good and bad lockbacks, linerlocks and framelocks. The good ones all hold up, the bad ones don't or have bladeplay.
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Spyderco does make knives just for legality reasons. That's my understanding anyway. Even in the USA there are places where locking knives are illegal. New York City is one of those places as I understand it. Some companies or resellers won't even ship certain knives to NYC. I'm not aware of why a lock or not makes a knife more a weapon or not. Probably a locking knife would be better for stabbing. I tried to poke a hole in sheetrock once with a non-locking knife and it folded on my index finger. That was just stupid. As I was increasing pressure I was thinking "I hope this thing doesn't fold". Then all of a sudden... LOL So I guess that would not be the knife to try to mug someone with and would be legal in NYC. I always thought blade length would be the most important thing. For me an EDC knife with a blade longer than 3.25" starts to be impractacle. A lumberjack would feel differently.
Knife laws. That's a subject that I have mixed feelings about. I disagree but I understand. One of those type of subjects. Just like guns. That's a whole different discussion though. Not to mention an ongoing one.
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