Replies to This Discussion

In MemoriamPermalink Reply by Scott King on February 7, 2011 at 17:59

I know we don't like talking about "these kind of things," but I fear there are some strong winds blowing against the American makers right now. Again, in the context of production knives- our companies here either must create a brand that is superior in quality and/or make low runs. But in really tight times, even that may not be enough. 

Take Case, for example, for many years they have felt the pain of the imports. Here is a link to a page of podcast interviews I did, including a two part series with Mr. Arrowsmith, President of Case, where he discusses that challenge. They have stood on their quality and collector following.

Honestly, I have a hard time seeing the day where demand dries up because of less expensive knives. But look back to the automakers (not apples to apples, I know) but remember when Toyota kicked our makers quality? It happened and then our makers were forced to quit building in functional obsolescence (a car made to die...in a predetermined number of years). Foreign made cars were viewed as better quality- and typically got better mileage. Buyers didn't feel it was unpatriotic to buy cars made oversees. (I know cause I was one of them).

New/Younger knife buyers are buying image/cool. They don't have the same feelings many of us here here. We want to preserve the cutlery firms still producing in America. Many of us are infatuated with their legacies- "the early days of American cutlery." All you have to do is look around iKC. Most of the younger knife fans 1) aren't a member of a offline knife club/association, 2) they don't subscribe to any knife pubs and 3) they don't collect/buy production knives, per se (not traditional pattern ones anyway). This is your buyer of tomorrow, figuratively speaking.

The tactical type knives- you can tell me what percentage of them are already made oversees (either made by a subcontractor, or a joint venture of some sort), but I bet it's more than you think.

So, if the American production companies can build a niche' following of loyal buyers (kind of like Apple Computer has)- a Cult type following (like Case has. GEC is well on its way too.), then folks are buying for more than the utility of the knife- they are supporting the company or in some cases are buying a status symbol, of sorts. That's the key- build value of the knife in the buyers mind where the knife represents more than just steel and bone.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on February 7, 2011 at 18:38

I agree with alot of what you say Scott and Hog has a valid point.  What I have noticed in the younger set of knife folks though, is they get the "fever" on the low end knives.  They certainly start on the tactical side.  As they grow and their knife interest takes hold they start looking at more traditional knives to carry.  They begin to "notice" the custom knives.  I know of at least one American production company that beleives these are the collectors of the future and since they are generally less expensive than the customs, I have seen a number of young folks take an interest and start actually collecting.  Brand loyalty is still a production knife makers "niche".   I think the new/younger generation of knife  buyers, having been through the last few years of our economy are feeling more patriotic or better about buying American made.  It is up to the companies to make the quality at a price that is affordable and to get the knives into the hands of our next generation.

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Permalink Reply by Trent Rock on February 7, 2011 at 20:47

There will always be a demand for low end/cheap knives

because a lot of people juts want a cheap TOOL

Not a collectors item

For example, the guy on his way to the mountains on a hunting trip

He stops in to Wal-Mart on the way

He can either buy a Buck 1110 for 49 bucks

Or  Gerber fixed blade for $19.99

The choice is easy for him, right?

 

As far as a trend in the percentage of "American Knives" that are made over seas

I think the current market will dictate that

I know Case XX still makes ALL their knives in the USA [thumbsup!]

Will they someday import cheap steel/knives from China?

Maybe...hard to say.....economic forecasting is not really know for being highly accurate and easy ;)

If they did everyone will be all up in arms and start telling me not to buy "Chinese Case's from Wal-Mart!!"

That logic makes no sense to me

If I don't buy the Chinses Case XX's

Then that affects the job security (because of low sales #'s) for the Case XX HQ employeees in Bradford,PA

They will have to layoff the accountants, the PR guys,the warehouse clerks and the factory workers (For the USA made knives)

 

Same with Buck Knives

If you boycott Buck knives because you are furious that they import 3 or 4 models from China to save costs

(And to, possibly, remain solvent)

How does that HELP the local economy in Post Falls?

Would you rather Buck be out of business or in business selling a few Chinese made knives?

Buck HAD to import some models to stay alive

Now they are reversing the trend you talk about Hog===>

‘American Commitment’ works for Buck Knives

OUTGROWTH – Two years after pledging to produce Buck Knives in the United States, the Post Falls-based company is renewing the commitment.

The decision was fairly easy, said C.J. Buck, president of the 108-year-old knife-making company. It’s been good for business.

“We found it has been effective in every way,” he said. “Most important, it has been our small way of helping reverse a growing trend to move jobs offshore…”

Buck said the company has been able to increase its Idaho work force during the period.

In 2010, the company employed 250 people in Post Falls and increased production 30 percent to build 1,235,121 knives, said company spokesman Tom Ables.

Buck said 93 percent of the company’s knives are built in Post Falls, including all of the knives made for hunting.

 

 

So no I don't think it is a PERMANENT trend

Why did Buck decide to start moving all models back to Post Falls?
I have no idea
Could be the sales #'s
Or it could be that they know that Made IN America is an important part of the Buck Legacy
And they listened to what their brand loyal consumers wanted

Only C.J. Buck and crew know the answer...

Also, the manufacturing sector is kind of the shining star during our recovery
The rebound of the manufacturing sector has shocked most economists
I too that that The Great Recession was the death knell for the manufacturing sector
The latest numbers from the ISM tell a very different story
The interesting part is that the manufacturing sector is a pre recession levels
with 7,000,000 FEWER workers
What does this mean?

One benefit of the long and painful recession is that companies and organizations have figured out how to become more efficient and “do more with less,” and that is reflected in the fact that GDP per U.S. worker went from $91,365 (in 2005 dollars at a seasonally adjusted annual rate) in the fourth quarter of 2007 to $96,231 in the fourth quarter of 2010, an increase in worker productivity of 5.32 percent. Perhaps those impressive gains in labor productivity over the last several years help explain why we are now experiencing a “jobless recovery” with a stubbornly high unemployment rate—companies have been able to expand output without hiring very many, if any, additional workers.

Those increases in worker productivity are a direct result of the ongoing capital investments in productivity-enhancing technology, computer equipment, robotics, and automation.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/02/amazing-gains-in-worker-product...

http://blog.american.com/?p=26110

 

Further reading for those interested:

 

So why do so many Americans fear that the Chinese are eating our lunch? Part of the reason is that fewer Americans work in factories. Millions of industrial jobs have vanished in recent decades, and there is no denying the hardship and stress that has meant for many families. But factory employment has declined because factory productivity has so dramatically skyrocketed: Revolutions in technology enable an American worker today to produce far more than his counterpart did a generation ago. Consequently, even as America’s manufacturing sector out-produces every other country on earth, millions of young Americans can aspire to become not factory hands or assembly workers, but doctors and lawyers, architects and engineers.

Made in the USA
US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 pe...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Billy Oneale on February 7, 2011 at 22:04

I started out with some cheaper imports because they didn't bust the budget. The more I collect the more I realize that the USA made knives are superior in quality than the imports. There are a few imports that I find the quality pretty good for the price paid. These are the knives that I don't worry about if I lose one. I buy mostly american made now. Queen  has started introducing some delrin handled knives that are priced competitively with the imports.  Case has always been one of the excellent american knives you can get for your dollar. The imports attract a lot of the younger buyers because of price. Some designs can only be found in an imported brand, like the Lady Leg patterns that my wife likes to collect. I hope that all the American companies will bring back production to the US.I just finished reading about the Great Eastern  book written by David Anthony. The history of knives that this book deals with  give a good insight into the issues that knife companies have faced in the last 100 to 150 years.  The competition used to be with German imports. I think that will always be the case in manufacturing. I think the bottom line is most people will buy what attracts their attention and they feel they are going to get the best bang for there buck. I try to buy mostly American , but I will ocasionally buy one manufactured overseas if it interest me.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on February 8, 2011 at 8:41

Thank you Jan, I agree that younger buyers may be drawn into knives on low end. I guess as a production knife company you hook a buyer anyway you can and then hope you can transition that buyer to better quality product.

Jan Carter said:

I agree with alot of what you say Scott and Hog has a valid point.  What I have noticed in the younger set of knife folks though, is they get the "fever" on the low end knives.  They certainly start on the tactical side.  As they grow and their knife interest takes hold they start looking at more traditional knives to carry.  They begin to "notice" the custom knives.  I know of at least one American production company that beleives these are the collectors of the future and since they are generally less expensive than the customs, I have seen a number of young folks take an interest and start actually collecting.  Brand loyalty is still a production knife makers "niche".   I think the new/younger generation of knife  buyers, having been through the last few years of our economy are feeling more patriotic or better about buying American made.  It is up to the companies to make the quality at a price that is affordable and to get the knives into the hands of our next generation.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on February 8, 2011 at 8:51

Trent your comment a Buck(underlined) is very interesting to me. Did Buck actually perceive that their customers felt it was important for Buck to be branded fully USA made? Did they consolidate production in US because the profit margin on knives made elsewhere was too low? Could they not control quality? I would love to know if they contracted knife production or in fact had their own "Buck factory".

Trent Rock said:

There will always be a demand for low end/cheap knives

because a lot of people juts want a cheap TOOL

Not a collectors item

For example, the guy on his way to the mountains on a hunting trip

He stops in to Wal-Mart on the way

He can either buy a Buck 1110 for 49 bucks

Or  Gerber fixed blade for $19.99

The choice is easy for him, right?

 

As far as a trend in the percentage of "American Knives" that are made over seas

I think the current market will dictate that

I know Case XX still makes ALL their knives in the USA [thumbsup!]

Will they someday import cheap steel/knives from China?

Maybe...hard to say.....economic forecasting is not really know for being highly accurate and easy ;)

If they did everyone will be all up in arms and start telling me not to buy "Chinese Case's from Wal-Mart!!"

That logic makes no sense to me

If I don't buy the Chinses Case XX's

Then that affects the job security (because of low sales #'s) for the Case XX HQ employeees in Bradford,PA

They will have to layoff the accountants, the PR guys,the warehouse clerks and the factory workers (For the USA made knives)

 

Same with Buck Knives

If you boycott Buck knives because you are furious that they import 3 or 4 models from China to save costs

(And to, possibly, remain solvent)

How does that HELP the local economy in Post Falls?

Would you rather Buck be out of business or in business selling a few Chinese made knives?

Buck HAD to import some models to stay alive

Now they are reversing the trend you talk about Hog===>

‘American Commitment’ works for Buck Knives

OUTGROWTH – Two years after pledging to produce Buck Knives in the United States, the Post Falls-based company is renewing the commitment.

The decision was fairly easy, said C.J. Buck, president of the 108-year-old knife-making company. It’s been good for business.

“We found it has been effective in every way,” he said. “Most important, it has been our small way of helping reverse a growing trend to move jobs offshore…”

Buck said the company has been able to increase its Idaho work force during the period.

In 2010, the company employed 250 people in Post Falls and increased production 30 percent to build 1,235,121 knives, said company spokesman Tom Ables.

Buck said 93 percent of the company’s knives are built in Post Falls, including all of the knives made for hunting.

 

 

So no I don't think it is a PERMANENT trend

Why did Buck decide to start moving all models back to Post Falls?
I have no idea
Could be the sales #'s
Or it could be that they know that Made IN America is an important part of the Buck Legacy
And they listened to what their brand loyal consumers wanted

Only C.J. Buck and crew know the answer...

Also, the manufacturing sector is kind of the shining star during our recovery
The rebound of the manufacturing sector has shocked most economists
I too that that The Great Recession was the death knell for the manufacturing sector
The latest numbers from the ISM tell a very different story
The interesting part is that the manufacturing sector is a pre recession levels
with 7,000,000 FEWER workers
What does this mean?

One benefit of the long and painful recession is that companies and organizations have figured out how to become more efficient and “do more with less,” and that is reflected in the fact that GDP per U.S. worker went from $91,365 (in 2005 dollars at a seasonally adjusted annual rate) in the fourth quarter of 2007 to $96,231 in the fourth quarter of 2010, an increase in worker productivity of 5.32 percent. Perhaps those impressive gains in labor productivity over the last several years help explain why we are now experiencing a “jobless recovery” with a stubbornly high unemployment rate—companies have been able to expand output without hiring very many, if any, additional workers.

Those increases in worker productivity are a direct result of the ongoing capital investments in productivity-enhancing technology, computer equipment, robotics, and automation.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/02/amazing-gains-in-worker-product...

http://blog.american.com/?p=26110

 

Further reading for those interested:

 

So why do so many Americans fear that the Chinese are eating our lunch? Part of the reason is that fewer Americans work in factories. Millions of industrial jobs have vanished in recent decades, and there is no denying the hardship and stress that has meant for many families. But factory employment has declined because factory productivity has so dramatically skyrocketed: Revolutions in technology enable an American worker today to produce far more than his counterpart did a generation ago. Consequently, even as America’s manufacturing sector out-produces every other country on earth, millions of young Americans can aspire to become not factory hands or assembly workers, but doctors and lawyers, architects and engineers.

Made in the USA
US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 pe...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on February 8, 2011 at 8:58

Didn't realize what Queen was doing and that will be worthwhile to check out. I think too that it might make a difference if you "own" the factory which is the case with the Rough Rider line. In fact if you look at what SMKW is doing now they are offering brands that are made in China but with more expensive materials (Select name I think)and they are raising prices on those. An interesting trend!

Billy Oneale said:

I started out with some cheaper imports because they didn't bust the budget. The more I collect the more I realize that the USA made knives are superior in quality than the imports. There are a few imports that I find the quality pretty good for the price paid. These are the knives that I don't worry about if I lose one. I buy mostly american made now. Queen  has started introducing some delrin handled knives that are priced competitively with the imports.  Case has always been one of the excellent american knives you can get for your dollar. The imports attract a lot of the younger buyers because of price. Some designs can only be found in an imported brand, like the Lady Leg patterns that my wife likes to collect. I hope that all the American companies will bring back production to the US.I just finished reading about the Great Eastern  book written by David Anthony. The history of knives that this book deals with  give a good insight into the issues that knife companies have faced in the last 100 to 150 years.  The competition used to be with German imports. I think that will always be the case in manufacturing. I think the bottom line is most people will buy what attracts their attention and they feel they are going to get the best bang for there buck. I try to buy mostly American , but I will ocasionally buy one manufactured overseas if it interest me.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on February 8, 2011 at 9:04

For our members located in countries other than the USA, this discussion is aimed at you too. What is happening in other countries with production, in Germany, in Japan, in Pakistan or Argentina? We would love to know the following: is this effecting production on low end knives everywhere in the world?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on February 8, 2011 at 11:16

James , lets hope they do and I guess lets say lets hope they can!

JAMES IVY said:

yo hog!

lets hope not hog. all that stuff is pretty much trash in my opinion. lets hope the younger folks keep buying american!

• ▶ Reply

In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on February 8, 2011 at 11:22

Hey Hog .. just throwing a thought out there .....

 

Suppose "Rough Rider" looked @ "Queens" business model.

… 'n started doing short run / low end specialties for …

… a BUNCH of the industry …

 

!!! .. that’d be kinda cool .. !!!

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Chris Hillier on February 8, 2011 at 11:29

I am neither young nor old, although there are mornings that i certainly feel one way or the other. I only seriously started amassing knives, more expensive ones that is now that i am more financially settled. People may laugh that I dont have a particular brand i collect, i buy what appeals to me. When i started it was the cheaper versions that allowed me to own enough knives, that were cheap enough to use, that allowed me to formulate what works for me and what is hog wash (excuse the reference Hog). You get what you pay for, in most cases. I'm glad that the knife industry is such that it allowed me to make up MY mind. Now i can focus my money where my hand is, not buying flashy ad queens!

• ▶ Reply

In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on February 8, 2011 at 11:35

What's up w/ the collaboration between Case & Frost ????

 

 My observations & conjectures ..

 

Frost owns the “rights” to Corelon ..

Frost mkts .. @ std pricing levels .. some select CASE models .. scaled w/  Corelon matl.

Frost mkts .. 8~10 $ range .. a twin to Case’s mini-copperlock .. critical dimensions = same.

 

I believe Case uses Corelon as scale matl.

 

 

??? .. Any Comments .. ???

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