Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Halicon on November 22, 2009 at 11:42

Thank you for the change of heart. I'm here to spread my knowledge to as many as possible, and you're right on the very reason why I do - people simply don't have seen or heard it mentioned.
I do believe that an old knife can be made new and fully useable again with a HAND polish that I specialize in. Yes, it is a hard technique but when it comes to cutlery you simply can't get more performance and beauty from you refine the scratchmarks that the original cutlery left on their coarse wheels.

I would consider it a sin to take a historical craft and bring it to a polishing wheel, it would completely ruin the work and leave utter junk left.
Here's the kicker though, the Japanese way of polishing steel is the most abrasive-friendly method in the world. It takes days, even weeks, but the polisher knows this and accepts it because nothing in the whole world can make it better.

In Japan, the maker of cutlery has one banner that says "smith" in his workshop, and another one that says 'Toishi' which means polisher educated by the traditional means by the Japanese authoroties, and the polisher has the same two banners in his shop.

They accept openly that a cutlery craft isn't completed until it's been polished out in the traditional arts, taken up to 16k grits and in some cases even more. On a sword this careful process can take up to three months with daily 8 hour workdays.

Anyone and everyone can become Toishi themselves, that's the very reason I am here. To help people find the right stone for their needs and then teach them how to use it for the best results.
Please bear with me now as I feel I have to explain this thoroughly or it is difficult to understand.

I polish every knife I own to be able to sustain very dirty places, that is how I was taught, and depending on the value, history and condition I either mirror polish it or use special stones that highlight the edge or produces other effects. The makers we have today have all loved what I did to their knives and welcomed it with open arms, but it's always a constant balancing of which stone suits which steel best.

I could have that Black bowie of yours done in a Jiffy, erasing anything that draws away the attention from the beautiful craft of the maker. I know most haven't got the training to do that but so what? Not everyone can make a knife, and still some do.
I have a hard time understanding how you shoot down my profession so easily just because it is a method originating from Japan with their slate natural stones.

There are stones that are so soft that they only refine the very deep pits, the steel digs into the soft stone and the edge remains untouched, but again, it is my profession and I use my full array for vintage cutlery in order to make them look fresh like the maker intended them yet keep their historical roots.

Regarding our combined confused sentence of mistreatment, I gave you an example of what a properly finished, re-patinad vintage knife 'can' survive.
I keep my knives fresher than I keep myself but it doesn't stop the ones I'm selling my work to, to do whatever they want with theirs, and I have seen many a knives that were ruined by strong liquids by their owners.

I just finished polishing up a custom knife of Randy Haas from a decent sharpness to mirror secondary bevel, plus it shaves comfortably. I asked him personally and he was very amused at how fine edge his crafts can take.

Lastly, the stones I use are special-ordered directly from Japan, and they were dug deep down in the mines to produce the proper hardness that I prefer on my stones. To give you an idea of what these stones cost and how rare and fine they are; I paid over $400 for my finishing stone that will eventually run out and I will be forced to buy a new one.
I only deal with the best of the best.

I did start out as a freshman just lightly touching the stone with my blade and trying to keep the angles, but that's almost a decade ago now and I feel that I am ready to help others get out on this glorious way!

Thank you for the link, I'll check it out but it seems to be mostly low-end European/Chinese natural stones, and these tend to be a bit too soft for the steel that were hardened past HRC 63-64.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Prather on November 22, 2009 at 14:30

"I could have that Black bowie of yours done in a Jiffy, erasing anything that draws away the attention from the beautiful craft of the maker. I know most haven't got the training to do that but so what? Not everyone can make a knife, and still some do.
I have a hard time understanding how you shoot down my profession so easily just because it is a method originating from Japan with their slate natural stones."

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
YOU JUST DON'T GET IT! The topic of this discussion is supposed to be: "SHOULD I POLISH BLADES OF OLD KNIVES?" It was posted by a COLLECTOR, NOT a user!

If you want this to be the new topic, PLEASE start a new string.

You obviously don't know much about antique American knives, such as the aforementioned James Black Bowie. The Holy Grail of knife collecting!

And I did NOT shoot down your profession. It is a perfectly respectable, and admired, vocation! Where you came up with that idea, I haven't a clue!

I give up!

Thank you for the link, I'll check it out but it seems to be mostly low-end European/Chinese natural stones, and these tend to be a bit too soft for the steel that were hardened past HRC 63-64.

Please don't pass these stones off as "European/Chinese". Many of these stone come from Japan as bulk slate, where they are hand ground by a member of my own family, who probably has more training in Japan than you do! Maybe you were trained in Japan, I don't know. Many, also, are mined in Israel. Some from Holy Land. In my humble opinion, 16K grit is, by definition, 16K grit... no matter where it comes from. If it came from Wardville, Oklahoma, it would still be 16K grit! Again, you seem to be voicing your opinion before you know the facts of the topic.

Again, I say, COLLECTORS... do NOT remove steel from an antique knife and expect it to retain it's collectible value and historical value. It will be nice for a user, if you want, but not as a collectible.

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Permalink Reply by Frank Plant on November 22, 2009 at 14:37

Friends,
I hope that we don't turn this forum into "I know more than you do about..." I started this topic because I'm a new collector, and I cherish the opinion of more experienced collectors and knife makers. As the old saying goes: "An opinion is like a butthole; we all have one!" Personally, I will decide how to treat my own knives; but only after reading the advise and opinions of others.
I'm more turned on to "This is how I do it, and I'm pleased with it" than to "Do this" or "Don't do this".
I greatly appreciate all the help that I've received here, and look forward to learning more from you good folks in the future.
Peace,
frankp

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Permalink Reply by Jim Prather on November 22, 2009 at 14:58

Frank... You are ABSOLUTELY right! Please forgive me for my part. And I apologise to the rest of the forum members as well.
Uncle Jim

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Permalink Reply by Frank Plant on November 22, 2009 at 15:12

Uncle Jim,
No apology needed...from anyone!! As I stated earlier, I sincerely cherish the opinions and advise of/from you guys!! You're helping me to greatly enjoy collecting knives with my 11 year old grandson.
You might enjoy this little story: Last Friday night, I took my grandson to a local auction. During the auction, I gave him 20 bucks to get something to eat at the concession stand. He came back with a hamburger and two knives that he had bid on and bought while he was away....Suffice to say; I didn't get much change back!!
Priceless!!
frankp

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Permalink Reply by Halicon on November 23, 2009 at 10:03

Way to cut and gut my text, you took everything out of context and angled it to help your own argument. The young internet generation considers the people that reply in that way as "flamers" and "trolls".

Last message you told me how a collector, or anyone at all here has mo experience with whetstones, and now a family member of yours is driving a quarryy?
I know the things I know and if you don't want to partake of it simply don't reply (cranky comes to mind).

Where is the stamp that says that this is collectors knives we're discussing only? It's in the "traditional knife forum" and the topic is to polish old knives or not. Where on earth do you get off on to even geting upset?

The Japanese techniques are here, and I will teach and help anyone that is interested. I have enough knowledge to know that a simple $200-300 belgian/chinese/Israeli stone doesn't offer the same type of scratch pattern that I want for my needs. Neither are they as hard as I need of stone with 64-66HRC, the stones you suggest would be eaten up in weeks. That is something I know by experience and actually testing these natural stones.

It doesn't matter if the stones comes from Japan, America or wherever. If it was mined shallow in the slate then it will be soft no matter what happens inside the mountain. Many stones in Japan are also too soft for my needs, thus I order ones that were mined deeper down in the stratum and was thus subjected to more pressure, movement and heat - creating a harder and smoother surface.

That's the way the natural stones exist, this is real knowledge that I obtained from a Japanese miner himself while I was studying to become a polisher. I am not stating any faulty or inaccurate info, again I just know the things I know and want to share it with anyone that wants it (like the topic about polishing an old blade).

Is that something that I need to be argued with about? It is my right alone to decide if the knowledge I was taught is shared, and believe me, there are more collectors of cutlery that seek the type of services we offer than you can count.

That is the truth of this profession, if you feel the need to shy away from this then fine, it's your own choice - but for gods sake stay civil while doing so and don't come off like someone that is so hell-bent on his own ideals he won't look at anything at a different angle.

I hope this is clear and non-hostile enough for no one to get upset. This argument is over for me as I have completely understood Jim's opinion is impossible to influence.

I'll gladly help anyone restore their old cutlery though.

edit: Just so you know Jim, the US and Japanese use different grit standards. 1000 grit in Japan is closer to 300 of the US standard. It does matter which standard they list the stone under.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Cothren on November 30, 2009 at 14:31

Frank, I prefer not to polish old, collector knives, simply to wipe them down and keep them oiled a bit. Most collecters will like the patina, pitting (some call these age spots) and other age related wear to the knives if collecting them. This provides a history to the knife even if the original owner is unknown you still have that inherent history that is represented by the various flaws present. In some cases this patina, aging and other minor flaws can even enhance the value. However it is good, if you intend on storing the knife to properly oil or wax the blades to prevent or slow any further deterioration. In some cases I do clean them up a bit with some simichrome or blue magic just to stop the aging process and protect the knife but only if they are in good condition already and have not obvious damage to the blade but only if it is apparent they have been handled and sharpened properly in the past.

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Permalink Reply by Frank Evans on December 29, 2009 at 0:39

The most abrsive thing I use is Mothers Billett - It's a great restoring polish over time but mild enough to use for regular buffings...

I only use Mico fiber Cloths now days.

And with new knives I try to use about one cloth to 5 or 6 buffings or you'll get some lines....

With all due respect, I clean more often than nessary.... in this forum you best watch what you say.....

I did recover from 9/11 in 2008 three bags of confiscated knives that were rusted, some backed over by forktrucks but all water dammageed - Mothers Billette restored thres three and a bunch more that were throw aways... Everything does not arive mint.... Now days..........

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Permalink Reply by chris giarde on January 8, 2010 at 22:51

Most knifemakers don't want anyones messing with there knives unless we do our own knives for the customer who we made them for. And that means even if I die but if the customer wants it cleaned up it is his and the customer always needs to be happy. He decides and maybe makes the knife not as valuable but he is happy.

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Permalink Reply by Terry Waldele on November 5, 2010 at 23:54

I was reviewing old iKC discussions and, as an amateur knife collector, modifier, repairer and restorer, this one was particularly interesting to me:

"I just polished the blades on an old, cheap Boker knife. I have a polishing wheel that I've used for years to polish brass and copper, so I'm experienced at using the wheel. But, being new to knife collecting, I'm wondering if I'd be making a mistake by polishing blades of better knives. It doesn't remove pits, but it removes all the spots and makes the blades shine."

I have bought a few old knives, especially military ones, that were pitted and thickly coated with rust. It doesn't make sense to me to put a knife in this condition in my collection, so I have used naval jelly and coarse steel wool to remove the rust and used very fine steel wool to remove the remaining tarnish. On antique and collectible quality pocket knives that are pitted and really rusty, I use the same process, and add a final step of polishing the blades and bolsters. I agree that knives that are merely tarnished or have a fine patina may not need any polishing, but in my humble opinion, they are in a completely different category. I would like to know whether other collectors feel the same was as I do about this.

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Permalink Reply by Rob Gregg on December 6, 2010 at 20:05

I guess for me each knife should be considered on it's own merits. An older collectible knife that has been used (not abused) and has aquired that beautiful patina that comes from being properly cared for over the years should not, in my opinion, be scrubed, sanded, steel wooled or polished. Simply keep it oiled and maintained as well as you can. However, over the years I've aquired many folding knives that have been abused. Rust, corosion and gook to the point of not operating properly. I do the least amount of cleaning I can on these knives, but do whatever it takes to get them up and running. Again, take each knife on it's own merits. There is a huge difference between tampering with a pre-1920 Case knife that has been loved and well kept all it's life and a vintage era Schrade that has spent the better part of it's life in the bottom of a damp tackle box. Do the least you can to clean one up while maintaining as much of the integrity of the knife and it's natural patina as possible. With all that said, polishing should almost never be required to get a knife to function properly. Just my 2 cents worth. Rob

Terry Waldele said:

I was reviewing old iKC discussions and, as an amateur knife collector, modifier, repairer and restorer, this one was particularly interesting to me:

"I just polished the blades on an old, cheap Boker knife. I have a polishing wheel that I've used for years to polish brass and copper, so I'm experienced at using the wheel. But, being new to knife collecting, I'm wondering if I'd be making a mistake by polishing blades of better knives. It doesn't remove pits, but it removes all the spots and makes the blades shine."

I have bought a few old knives, especially military ones, that were pitted and thickly coated with rust. It doesn't make sense to me to put a knife in this condition in my collection, so I have used naval jelly and coarse steel wool to remove the rust and used very fine steel wool to remove the remaining tarnish. On antique and collectible quality pocket knives that are pitted and really rusty, I use the same process, and add a final step of polishing the blades and bolsters. I agree that knives that are merely tarnished or have a fine patina may not need any polishing, but in my humble opinion, they are in a completely different category. I would like to know whether other collectors feel the same was as I do about this.

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Permalink Reply by terrence ellington on September 19, 2011 at 15:56

I agree with Frank: Peace! One of the reasons I joined this community is the way members reply to each other in a non confrontational manner,  unlike another forum in which members snipe at each other trying to maintain their Top Dog status as an expert. I am not an expert but it seems to me that the answer lies in the use to which the knife is to be  used. Some of my knives are of very fine quality. Most of my knives are a pleasure to carry in my pocket whether I paid a lot for them or not. For instance, I just purchased an Imperial toothpick with a picture of a Pointer on the handle. I've never seen another one like it. Is it a collector piece? Yes. Is it a cheap old knife it'd be fun to carry? Yes. It has some sort of crud on the blade and perhaps rust but looks whole and unsharpened. I'm going to clean it up and sharpen it, maybe use plastic polish on the handle to bring out the dog. Then I'm going to smile and put it in my  pocket.

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