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The online community of knife collectors, A Knife Family Forged in Steel
"The good ole days" - show us some OLD KNIVES
I was talking with my Grandson the other day, and I told him, "I like old knives" - he said "I like the new ones". I shared that with my wife and she said "you gotta be old to like the old things". Maybe she is right. I find myself more and more liking older things, sayings, buildings, guns, knives, and a large assortment of older things. Seems like things made more sense (to me anyway) in the good ole days.
So when were the good ole days?? For me (I'm 67) the good ole days were in the 60's. When it comes to knives, I like a knife that was made either before I was born (1946) or at least before I graduated from High School (1964). I graduated in Arcade, New York and was surrounded by great cutleries, and didn't even think about it at the time. How many times have I driven by the Robeson factory in Perry, NY and didn't even know it.
Anyway, I like old Knives. I like all knives, but especially the older ones. Lets use this discussion to show some-of what you may think as an older knife. Looking forward to seeing a taste of "the good ole days".
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ken Spielvogel on
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Robert, Sue and Chuck both have charts. But its in the discussion "Robeson Stampings" and its a good one - I just looked it up again and its there. If you can't find it, send me the stamping and I will find it.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Cooper on
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Here ya go, Robert...
Pattern Numbering System
Robeson's numbering system for their knife patterns was among the best of all American knife manufacturers. The basic pattern number consists of six digits. Think of them as two sets of numbers of three digits each. The first three digits relate to the knife's construction materials. The first digit refers to the handle material. The second digit refers to the number of blades in the knife. The third digit refers to the material composition of the bolsters and liners of the knife. The last three digits are the designated number of a particular handle-die shape, or the individual style of a particular knife. When Robeson began numbering their knives, they started with 001. They continued to number the knives up into the 900's. As older styles of knives were discontinued because that type knife no longer had a market, they reassigned that knife's number to a new style of knife. One example of that is a swell-end, two blade "Harness Jack" with a spear master blade and a leather punch and the handle-die number 382. With the invention of the automobile, and the power tractor, the use of horses and therefore horse harnesses, greatly diminished. They discontinued the Harness Jack. They later reassigned that number to a relatively modern and very attractive two blade Trapper pattern. Those two styles of knives are pictured side by side and discussed in the Two Blade knife section in Knife Gallery III.
One will find Robeson knives with only a five digit pattern number. This occurred for one reason. If the handle-die shape number was between 010 and 099, sometimes the zero was dropped from the pattern number, creating a five digit number. The number was actually still the same, if one continues to treat the numbers as two separate sets of numbers. For instance, if a 622056 regular jack was marked, 62256, the number is the same and should be read as, "622 / 56" and the longer number as, "622 / 056". Most of the examples of five digit numbers occurred on knives with smaller master blades where a six digit number did not fit well.
During the 1950's, Robeson once again imported German made pocketknives. All the examples I've seen had four digit pattern numbers. An example can be seen in the six blade knife section in Knife Gallery V. It is a six blade utility knife, much like some Swiss Army Knife patterns, and has the number, 4864.
Knives will be seen with a suffix added to the pattern number. 1/2 and 1-2 are the same, and mean "One-Half". I've noticed that usually occurs on knives that normally have a clip master blade, but instead have a spear master blade. Tom Kalcevic, in Knives Can Talk, states that knives with an added bail carry the suffix, as well. Other suffixes I've seen are 100, 125, and 250. I do not know what they mean, exactly.
The first digit of the Robeson pattern number denotes handle material. The known numbers are as follows:
0 = Metal (Aluminum or Stainless Steel)
1 = Ebony, Black Cocobola Wood, or Black Composition
2 = Rosewood, or Walnut
3 = Slick Black Composition
4 = Ivory Celluloid
5 = Saw Cut Bone, Genuine Stag, Saw Cut Delrin, or Gold-Filled Metal
6 = Genuine Bone, Jigged Rough Black Plastic, Jigged Delrin Imitation Bone
7 = Genuine Pearl or Abalone
8 = Single Colored or Multi-Colored Patterned Celluloid
9 = Imitation Pearl Celluloid, Christmas Tree Celluloid, ShurWood,
or Gun Metal
C = Older Celluloid Knives
G = Gold
The oldest Robeson knives have green bone handles, followed by brown bone with different qualities of dies and jigging patterns, then the famous strawberry bone of the 1950's.
The second digit of the Robeson Pattern number denotes the number of blades. The known numbers are 1 through 6.
The third digit of the Robeson pattern number denotes the material composition or combination of materials used for the liners and bolsters. The known numbers are as follows:
0 = Combination Handle, Liners, and Bolsters
1 = Steel Liners and Bolsters
2 = Brass Liners and Nickle-Silver Bolsters
3 = Nickle-Silver Liners and Bolsters
4 = Not known, but seen on at least two knives, one a 234322 take apart slot
knife.
5 = Special
6 = Again Brass Liners and Nickle-Silver Bolsters
8 = Integral Nickle-Silver Liners and Bolsters
9 = Stainless Steel Liners and Bolsters
Now, let's look at that 622056 pattern knife I mentioned earlier. The knife under discussion is a 3 3/4" regular jack knife. The first digit, 6, denotes bone handles, or possibly jigged rough black plastic or jigged Delrin imitation bone, depending on when the knife was manufactured. The second digit, 2, denotes two blades. In the case of this particular pattern, there is a clip master blade and a large pen secondary blade. The third digit, 2, denotes brass liners and nickle-silver bolsters. The last three digits, 056, is the designated Robeson number for that particular 3 3/4" regular jack.
Tang Stamps
The various tang stamps used by The Robeson Cutlery Company apparently fall into fairly well defined time periods. Like the tang stamps used by the Case cutlery companies, Robeson's tang stamps were used for certain periods of time, then replaced by newer, but different designs. Robeson's stamps have long been divided into periods of time that included those from the early 1890's to about 1900, 1900 to about 1945, 1945 to 1965, and 1965 to 1977. These intitial time period estimates were provided by Mr. Dewey Ferguson in Romance of Collecting Cattaraugus, Robeson, Russell and Queen Knives, 1976. These estimates served me well during the earlier years of my collecting.
As I have stated earlier, the best reference on all things Robeson is Knives Can Talk, by Tom Kalcevic. Mr. Kalcevic resides in the Rochester/Perry, New York area. He has had access to former factory workers, factory documents, the spouse of Emerson Case_ Robeson's last president, and City Directories in the local libraries. Tom's breakdown and dating of the various stampings used by Robeson is the most detailed in existence. I have chosen to accept, by faith, what Tom has described. He has graciously permitted me to duplicate his data here.
I do have one or two marks that were not included in Tom's book, and I have dated them in with some of his dates, as they seem to fit there as best as I can determine.
I do not possess a representative example of every tang stamp used by Robeson. I will provide a photo of any tang stamp that I can, however.
The different lines of a tang stamp will be separated by a forward slash /, with a space preceding and following. Different styles of lettering will be described within parentheses. Arched stamps will be designated as such within parentheses. Straight stamps will be as written.
I am going to limit this to the tang marks on the master blades of folding knives. If I depart from that, it will be noted.
M. F. ROBESON (seen only on razors, thus far) 1880 - 1884
ROBESON / CUTLERY Co. / ENGLAND 1885 - 1890
GENESEE 1891 - 1895
FILLMORE / CUTLERY / Co. 1891 - 1895
ROBESON / CUTLERY Co. / GERMANY 1891 - 1895
ROBESON / CUTLERY Co. with PREMIER on back 1895 - 1899
ROBESON / CUTLERY Co. / WARRANTED 1895 - 1899
THE / ROBESON / CUT. CO. / ROCHESTER, N.Y. 1896 - 1899
THE / R.C. CO. / ROCHESTER 1896 - 1899
This mark is on all three secondary blades of a four bladed pearl handled knife. The master is stamped, ROBESON / ShurEdge (script) / ROCHESTER, N.Y.. All four blades have long pulls, indicative of an early knife.
ROBESON / CUTLERY 1896 - 1899
ROBESON / CUT. CO. / U.S.A. 1900 - 1910
ROBESON (arched up) / CO. / CUTLERY (arched down) 1900 - 1910
ROBESON (arched) / CO. / CUTLERY 1900 - 1916
R. C. / CO. (This mark was used on knives with small blades) 1900 - 1939
ROBESON (arched) / ShurEdge (slanted) / ROCHESTER / N.Y. 1907 - 1910
ROBESON / ShurEdge (script) / ROCHESTER, N.Y. 1910 - 1921
TERRIER / CUTLERY / ROCHESTER, N.Y. 1910 - 1916
ROBESON / DEMONSTRATOR 1911 - 1939
ROBESON / ShurEdge (script) / U.S.A. 1916 - 1939
ROBESON (arched) / U.S.A. / CUTLERY 1917 - 1939
ROBESON / CUTLERY / U.S.A. 1917 - 1939
ROBESON / CUTLERY / ROCHESTER 1917 - 1939
ROBESON / ShurEdge (script) / ROCHESTER 1922 - 1939
ROBESON / SHUREDGE (block) / U.S.A. 1940 - 1964
ROBESON / Pattern Number / USA 1965 - 1977
Robeson made knives for several other companies over the years. I have identified a few knives that are obvious Robeson products, but marked otherwise. Some of these marks include, but are not limited to, O.V.B. (Hibbard, Spenser & Bartlett), F. C. CO. (Fulton Cutlery Co.), Globe Cutlery Co., Ka-Bar, Continental Cutlery Co., and Pine Knot, a brand name of Belknap Hardware.
The O.V.B., Globe, and Kabar marks above are all on four blade scout utility knives that are identical to Robeson 642214 pattern knives with the proprietary Robeson can-opener and screw-driver blades.
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For anyone interested in Robeson knives, here is a great source for information that has been compiled by Charlie Noyes: http://robesonsrme.com/
Charlie is a member here on iKC and I would welcome his participation in this conversation. I should also like to thank him for his research and the wealth of knowledge that I have extracted from his Robeson Rme. website.
Thank you, Charlie! And welcome home, my friend!
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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on
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Very well said Ron! Thanks Charlie
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FeaturedPermalink Reply by Craig Henry on -
Good info Ron!!
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I have a Blog with Charlies version of Robeson history - printed with his permission - check it out.
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Whoa Brad, that is one beautiful Muskrat, I love that bone. Really nice.
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Wow! I agree with Ken -- That is a beautiful 'rat with some truly "pocket worn" bone handles. Good one, Brad!
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Great resource Ron - thanks for posting
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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by Robert Burris on -
Great Knife. I love old Camillus knives.
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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by Robert Burris on -
Thanks, I age my Grand Daddy Barlow at 1940-1964. Great.Guys,
Ron Cooper said:Here ya go, Robert...
Pattern Numbering System
Robeson's numbering system for their knife patterns was among the best of all American knife manufacturers. The basic pattern number consists of six digits. Think of them as two sets of numbers of three digits each. The first three digits relate to the knife's construction materials. The first digit refers to the handle material. The second digit refers to the number of blades in the knife. The third digit refers to the material composition of the bolsters and liners of the knife. The last three digits are the designated number of a particular handle-die shape, or the individual style of a particular knife. When Robeson began numbering their knives, they started with 001. They continued to number the knives up into the 900's. As older styles of knives were discontinued because that type knife no longer had a market, they reassigned that knife's number to a new style of knife. One example of that is a swell-end, two blade "Harness Jack" with a spear master blade and a leather punch and the handle-die number 382. With the invention of the automobile, and the power tractor, the use of horses and therefore horse harnesses, greatly diminished. They discontinued the Harness Jack. They later reassigned that number to a relatively modern and very attractive two blade Trapper pattern. Those two styles of knives are pictured side by side and discussed in the Two Blade knife section in Knife Gallery III.
One will find Robeson knives with only a five digit pattern number. This occurred for one reason. If the handle-die shape number was between 010 and 099, sometimes the zero was dropped from the pattern number, creating a five digit number. The number was actually still the same, if one continues to treat the numbers as two separate sets of numbers. For instance, if a 622056 regular jack was marked, 62256, the number is the same and should be read as, "622 / 56" and the longer number as, "622 / 056". Most of the examples of five digit numbers occurred on knives with smaller master blades where a six digit number did not fit well.
During the 1950's, Robeson once again imported German made pocketknives. All the examples I've seen had four digit pattern numbers. An example can be seen in the six blade knife section in Knife Gallery V. It is a six blade utility knife, much like some Swiss Army Knife patterns, and has the number, 4864.
Knives will be seen with a suffix added to the pattern number. 1/2 and 1-2 are the same, and mean "One-Half". I've noticed that usually occurs on knives that normally have a clip master blade, but instead have a spear master blade. Tom Kalcevic, in Knives Can Talk, states that knives with an added bail carry the suffix, as well. Other suffixes I've seen are 100, 125, and 250. I do not know what they mean, exactly.
The first digit of the Robeson pattern number denotes handle material. The known numbers are as follows:
0 = Metal (Aluminum or Stainless Steel)
1 = Ebony, Black Cocobola Wood, or Black Composition
2 = Rosewood, or Walnut
3 = Slick Black Composition
4 = Ivory Celluloid
5 = Saw Cut Bone, Genuine Stag, Saw Cut Delrin, or Gold-Filled Metal
6 = Genuine Bone, Jigged Rough Black Plastic, Jigged Delrin Imitation Bone
7 = Genuine Pearl or Abalone
8 = Single Colored or Multi-Colored Patterned Celluloid
9 = Imitation Pearl Celluloid, Christmas Tree Celluloid, ShurWood,
or Gun Metal
C = Older Celluloid Knives
G = Gold
The oldest Robeson knives have green bone handles, followed by brown bone with different qualities of dies and jigging patterns, then the famous strawberry bone of the 1950's.
The second digit of the Robeson Pattern number denotes the number of blades. The known numbers are 1 through 6.
The third digit of the Robeson pattern number denotes the material composition or combination of materials used for the liners and bolsters. The known numbers are as follows:
0 = Combination Handle, Liners, and Bolsters
1 = Steel Liners and Bolsters
2 = Brass Liners and Nickle-Silver Bolsters
3 = Nickle-Silver Liners and Bolsters
4 = Not known, but seen on at least two knives, one a 234322 take apart slot
knife.
5 = Special
6 = Again Brass Liners and Nickle-Silver Bolsters
8 = Integral Nickle-Silver Liners and Bolsters
9 = Stainless Steel Liners and Bolsters
Now, let's look at that 622056 pattern knife I mentioned earlier. The knife under discussion is a 3 3/4" regular jack knife. The first digit, 6, denotes bone handles, or possibly jigged rough black plastic or jigged Delrin imitation bone, depending on when the knife was manufactured. The second digit, 2, denotes two blades. In the case of this particular pattern, there is a clip master blade and a large pen secondary blade. The third digit, 2, denotes brass liners and nickle-silver bolsters. The last three digits, 056, is the designated Robeson number for that particular 3 3/4" regular jack.
Tang Stamps
The various tang stamps used by The Robeson Cutlery Company apparently fall into fairly well defined time periods. Like the tang stamps used by the Case cutlery companies, Robeson's tang stamps were used for certain periods of time, then replaced by newer, but different designs. Robeson's stamps have long been divided into periods of time that included those from the early 1890's to about 1900, 1900 to about 1945, 1945 to 1965, and 1965 to 1977. These intitial time period estimates were provided by Mr. Dewey Ferguson in Romance of Collecting Cattaraugus, Robeson, Russell and Queen Knives, 1976. These estimates served me well during the earlier years of my collecting.
As I have stated earlier, the best reference on all things Robeson is Knives Can Talk, by Tom Kalcevic. Mr. Kalcevic resides in the Rochester/Perry, New York area. He has had access to former factory workers, factory documents, the spouse of Emerson Case_ Robeson's last president, and City Directories in the local libraries. Tom's breakdown and dating of the various stampings used by Robeson is the most detailed in existence. I have chosen to accept, by faith, what Tom has described. He has graciously permitted me to duplicate his data here.
I do have one or two marks that were not included in Tom's book, and I have dated them in with some of his dates, as they seem to fit there as best as I can determine.
I do not possess a representative example of every tang stamp used by Robeson. I will provide a photo of any tang stamp that I can, however.
The different lines of a tang stamp will be separated by a forward slash /, with a space preceding and following. Different styles of lettering will be described within parentheses. Arched stamps will be designated as such within parentheses. Straight stamps will be as written.
I am going to limit this to the tang marks on the master blades of folding knives. If I depart from that, it will be noted.
M. F. ROBESON (seen only on razors, thus far) 1880 - 1884
ROBESON / CUTLERY Co. / ENGLAND 1885 - 1890
GENESEE 1891 - 1895
FILLMORE / CUTLERY / Co. 1891 - 1895
ROBESON / CUTLERY Co. / GERMANY 1891 - 1895
ROBESON / CUTLERY Co. with PREMIER on back 1895 - 1899
ROBESON / CUTLERY Co. / WARRANTED 1895 - 1899
THE / ROBESON / CUT. CO. / ROCHESTER, N.Y. 1896 - 1899
THE / R.C. CO. / ROCHESTER 1896 - 1899
This mark is on all three secondary blades of a four bladed pearl handled knife. The master is stamped, ROBESON / ShurEdge (script) / ROCHESTER, N.Y.. All four blades have long pulls, indicative of an early knife.
ROBESON / CUTLERY 1896 - 1899
ROBESON / CUT. CO. / U.S.A. 1900 - 1910
ROBESON (arched up) / CO. / CUTLERY (arched down) 1900 - 1910
ROBESON (arched) / CO. / CUTLERY 1900 - 1916
R. C. / CO. (This mark was used on knives with small blades) 1900 - 1939
ROBESON (arched) / ShurEdge (slanted) / ROCHESTER / N.Y. 1907 - 1910
ROBESON / ShurEdge (script) / ROCHESTER, N.Y. 1910 - 1921
TERRIER / CUTLERY / ROCHESTER, N.Y. 1910 - 1916
ROBESON / DEMONSTRATOR 1911 - 1939
ROBESON / ShurEdge (script) / U.S.A. 1916 - 1939
ROBESON (arched) / U.S.A. / CUTLERY 1917 - 1939
ROBESON / CUTLERY / U.S.A. 1917 - 1939
ROBESON / CUTLERY / ROCHESTER 1917 - 1939
ROBESON / ShurEdge (script) / ROCHESTER 1922 - 1939
ROBESON / SHUREDGE (block) / U.S.A. 1940 - 1964
ROBESON / Pattern Number / USA 1965 - 1977
Robeson made knives for several other companies over the years. I have identified a few knives that are obvious Robeson products, but marked otherwise. Some of these marks include, but are not limited to, O.V.B. (Hibbard, Spenser & Bartlett), F. C. CO. (Fulton Cutlery Co.), Globe Cutlery Co., Ka-Bar, Continental Cutlery Co., and Pine Knot, a brand name of Belknap Hardware.
The O.V.B., Globe, and Kabar marks above are all on four blade scout utility knives that are identical to Robeson 642214 pattern knives with the proprietary Robeson can-opener and screw-driver blades.
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