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Why not a line of GEC's with a higher quality stainless steel?

I thought about the title of this discussion for a few minutes and this is what I chose. I mention this because I don't want to give the assumption what they use now is a poor quality steel at all.

The thing is there are several stainless steels that when sharpened properly can hold an edge longer than others. The only GEC knife I have now is a #68 Buckaroo with 1095 carbon blade steel. Again, nothing wrong with this steel. But I have a Spyderco with CTS-XHP (stainless). I did some extremely unscientific testing of edge retention. I cut up some pizza box cardboard with both. The XHP held an edge quite a bit longer than the 1095.

Some of the different steels can be hard enough making them more time consuming to sharpen. The remedy for this is usually more aggressive sharpening stones. Of course they aren't cheap. A few years ago I had to buy new stones when I bought knives that my old Arkansas stones wouldn't sharpen. I didn't know much about maintaining stones so they were probably just clogged and needed a good lapping. I've seen discussions about this in the past and I think the manufacturer's view is that their customer's would rather keep using the present steels instead of having blade steels they couldn't easily sharpen. I understand this completely. And speaking of cost different blade steels may drive the cost per knife high enough to keep sales down. I'm posting this thinking in the GEC group because of the quality of their knives. I'm basing my opinion of high quality on many people's reviews and the one GEC pocket knife I have owned for about 6 weeks. I like 1095. To prove that I'll continue to carry and use my new GEC knife. :) In the back of my mind I have a lack of edge retention line that if a knife crosses it I won't carry it no matter how nice the model is. I have no way to accurately test edge retention. I determine this by every day use so the performance I get may be different than someone else based on different use.

OTOH, maybe a different blade steel isn't the only answer. I understand the heat treat has as much control of blade quality as the steel itself. Maybe more. I had two knives from different companies that both had VG-10 blade steel. One knife maintained a sharp edge considerable longer than the other. I assume it was different heat treating. This issue requires more knowledge to discuss with intellegence than I have.

Most knife companies provide a wide variety of handle materials for various models. Why not do the same with blade steels? This may be a lot more difficult for reasons I can't even imagine.

One question for knife users to answer is would you rather have a knife that's very easy and fast to touch up to keep a sharp edge but doesn't hold the edge quite as long as another steel? Or would you prefer a knife that stays sharp longer and may (or may not) be more time consuming to sharpen. Again, with the proper stones any steel can be sharpened and kept sharp easily.

Any thoughts on this?

Jack

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by John Bamford on October 14, 2014 at 11:24

A good question Jack I like 1095 and it is good enough for everything that I ask of my pocket knives these days.

I have though become fond of stainless of late partly due to the fact that I now have a few knives and some get a bit more pocket time than others, I have sometimes taken a GEC out of it's tube and found some light rust spots on the blade.

GEC's 440c seems to take a sharp enough edge for me , but I would like the chance to buy GEC knives in other steels as well . This is not so much because I have a need for real high quality steel more that I have a degree of interest in trying these things.

I have some Queen Knives ,well three actually two in D2 and one in ATS34 , I used the D2 for some fairly heavy duty use on holiday in Scotland and it did perform very well. I would buy the Schatt and Morgan in BG42 just out of interest as well but it isn't a pattern that really speaks to me.

So to sum it up given half a chance I would certainly buy GEC knives in more modern steels given the chance. I don't mind a steel that takes a while to sharpen as I enjoy doing it.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on October 14, 2014 at 11:46

I'm retired now and therefore don't need long term edge retention either. But when I was working I would get a knife nice and sharp and by the end of the next day it had lost the sharp edge and I'd live with a knife that performed marginally. This always bugged me but I never delved into better quality knives. I was using Case, Buck, Old Timer, Schrade, etc. So they were all pretty good knives, I just was hoping for the blade steel I'd see in the movies. You know, the 3" pocket knife slicing bricks in half. lol What's frustrating is now that I have knives that will hold a very sharp edge 2 or 3 times longer I don't need it. (sad face) Actually the sharpening job has a lot to do with edge retention in addition to the blade steel. If we leave tiny burrs on an edge they will snap off during use leaving the edge cutting poorly. I have then thought this knife I paid a lot for doesn't stay sharp any longer than my less expensive knife. Come to find out a good sharpening job will make any steel stay sharp longer. It just takes a couple VERY light strokes on each side to remove burrs, some of which are microscopic and hard to detect with a thumbnail or other method. Living and learning I suppose. :)

Permalink Reply by Graeme on October 14, 2014 at 11:52

I've seen some in D2 and a few in 154CM. So there are options. And D2 and XHP are very similar.

I think that part of it is the fact that you can touch up 1095 just about anywhere on anything and get it to cut again. And it is cheap....

I personally would like very much to see some higher end steels in GEC knives. The costs would go up quite substantially I am sure. But even CPM 154 would be nice to see. I think that head treat and having a consistent hardness would probably be harder to achieve for these small companies though. Especially as the steels get more and more particular with how they need to be treated in order to have a good hardness.

Now, I would absolutely LOVE to have a long pull spear point #15 in ebony with M4 (I'd be ok with CPM 154 too for stainless). If anyone can make that happen...I would be in your debt for ever and ever.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on October 14, 2014 at 12:03

I LOVE M4. One of my absolute favorite steels. First of all it gets VERY sharp. Then it holds the very sharpness a long time (compared to some). And finally, as a non-stainless steel it corrodes far less than any other carbon steel I've owned. I had an M4 blade that I used Tuf-Glide on and could not force a patina on it until at least 2 or 3 months later. Tuf-Glide, while a good corrosion protectant doesn't protect any other carbon steel I've used from patina when used for food prep or a dinner knife. But M4??? Who wouldn't love a carbon steel that holds an edge this well and doesn't rust as fast. It will corrode of course. It's just easier to protect. I believe M4 is used a lot in cutting or chopping competition knives. I'm no expert myself at all. Others have said similar things. Gayle Bradley uses it for a lot of his knives I think. Actually, I have a Spyderco Bradley Folder coming in the mail today! I'm happy bout that. :) In fact it's time to take the lawn chair out to the mailbox to wait. LOL

Graeme said:

I've seen some in D2 and a few in 154CM. So there are options. And D2 and XHP are very similar.

I think that part of it is the fact that you can touch up 1095 just about anywhere on anything and get it to cut again. And it is cheap....

I personally would like very much to see some higher end steels in GEC knives. The costs would go up quite substantially I am sure. But even CPM 154 would be nice to see. I think that head treat and having a consistent hardness would probably be harder to achieve for these small companies though. Especially as the steels get more and more particular with how they need to be treated in order to have a good hardness.

Now, I would absolutely LOVE to have a long pull spear point #15 in ebony with M4 (I'd be ok with CPM 154 too for stainless). If anyone can make that happen...I would be in your debt for ever and ever.

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on October 14, 2014 at 18:34

A guess and trust me that is what it is, but having been there I know a tad bit about the steels they are using

1095. This steel is something they do in house. It is awesome because they control cost in that manner and as you stated, the cost of the steel itself is less.

Stainless is one of the VERY few things that GEC does not do inhouse. They have those items done for them. Now I do know they have used Peters Heat Treat over the years and you just do not get a better reputation for heat treating that Peters.

A number of thought processes go into that. Of course cost factor, typically less are made of the SS models because less quickly will sell based on that. Also turn around time from start to finish.

Say you are going to offer the knife in both 1095 and 440C. You can produce the 1095 and have it out for sale an estimated 2 weeks prior to the 440 because your doing it in house. Folks wanting that pattern may not wait for the 440, they dont want the pattern to get away from them.

I have long been a fan of how GEC created their lines to have the GEC brand itself be their top of their and 440. The NF and the Tidiouts to be midline and less bells and whistles. It allows for the something for everyone mindset. We collected many of the older GEC 440's and made users of the same knife in the 1095 because it was a preferred user steel.

Right now I would LOVE!!! to see the put out a 154CPM. It is not an expensive steel but as a user, I adore it!

Permalink Reply by Graeme on October 14, 2014 at 18:45

Well lets get on them about a higher end steel. They have made 154CM knives for Northwoods. So they have used it before...

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on October 14, 2014 at 19:03

I agree :)

Permalink Reply by Andrew Cutler on October 15, 2014 at 19:43

Great discussion all. I have to admit that I have not paid as much attention to the steel as I should, and all of your comments have been very informative and helpful. It also explains why a 30 year old Case camper knife I have takes and holds a razor sharp edge while a recent Swiss Army I have is miserably hard to sharpen-I think I understand why,anyway! As I mentioned in an earlier discussion thread, my current favorite GEC is the new #42 they just came out with.Seems to have a pretty good factory edge and they handle like a dream. As I only have traditional folders, I applaud GEC for their great effort in revitalizing American traditional folders. They really need to tap into the Millennial market (ages 20-30), as they really love made in USA traditional goods. Right now I'm carrying the #42 Frontier bone.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on October 15, 2014 at 21:25

There's the #42 mentioned again. Someone (forget who) mentioned it a couple days ago so I checked it out and it is on my possible Christmas list. The handle materials on the ones I've looked at are gorgeous. Even elk which I had never seen before. But the wood I think is what I may get. I love beautiful wood and those scales look beautiful. What great looking knives. And with GEC on the label I bet they perform great as well. :D

Side note: When they say a shield is "pinned" what does that mean?

Permalink Reply by Andrew Cutler on October 15, 2014 at 21:36

That was me Jack!!! I can't stop talking about them. I'm with you on wood-I've been eyeing the Chestnut model. I LOVE a good wood handled knife. Pinned means that the shield is fixed to the handle with pins rather than glued on.Some models the pins are not visible, so I'm taking their word for it.

Permalink Reply by Graeme on October 15, 2014 at 22:00

They look nice. The 42. Big knife too. I like the chestnut, but not the 440C. Rather have 1095, and the Northfields look great with that long pull (I always like the long pull over the nail nick)

I think that by using materials like Micarta and maybe by upgrading some steel options they will pull some younger crowd in. The guys that know steel and like the modern materials but still want a "old timey" knife like their father or grandfather did.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on October 15, 2014 at 22:02

Yeah, I can't see pins on the GEC I have but that's one of their claims I think. I have seen shields with little nail head (as I call them) at each end. Maybe the pins are welded onto the bottom of the shield and set into the scale. Why don't you get your favorite knife and a small screwdriver and pry the shield off so we will know. NO WAIT! I was kidding. lol

Andrew Cutler said:

That was me Jack!!! I can't stop talking about them. I'm with you on wood-I've been eyeing the Chestnut model. I LOVE a good wood handled knife. Pinned means that the shield is fixed to the handle with pins rather than glued on.Some models the pins are not visible, so I'm taking their word for it.