Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 18, 2013 at 11:20

Glad you got them already Stephen.  The water turning black is proving the steel is being removed from the edge which is great.  What are you sharpening on?  Some people use a "sink bridge" that hold the stones above the sink right where plenty of water is.  Or others (me) use a sharpening pond.  Being as cheap (broke) as I am I made my own.  It's just a 12" piece of mirror glued to a piece of 3/4" plywood with a plastic wall around it. I happened to have all this on hand when I found out I needed one.  The wall is about 1/2" high.  Here's a pic of mine.  It's nothing pretty but it keeps the water off the floor. :)  The DMT stone in the picture doesn't need water but I use water sometimes.  But the Shapton's will do better with lots of water.  You can't use too much water.  The only way you'll keep them white is to use a flattening stone.  If you don't have on now you won't need one of those for a while.  I'm guessing you will need one about 4:30 today. lol  You'll want one as soon as you can get one.  The 140 grit diamond one on CKTG works fine. Or if you want one you can also sharpen with the DMT coarse or extra-coarse stones work good.  The 140 grit is REALLY coarse.  Sometimes I use my extra coarse DMT 6" stone to flatten water stones with.  It's about $26 on cutleryshoppe.com.  This is cheaper than the 140 grit stone on CKTG.  It is 8" though.  Looking forward to hearing what you think as you get more time with them.  Happy sharpening.  Note:  Do you have bandaids??? lol

Stephen L. Corley said:

I have given them a try and the only thing wrong with them is my own imperfections in honing. Here is a little info I discovered. I didn't state this earlier, but they are white. Being ceramic, they do not absorb water. The water simply sits on top. Before use it tends to puddle. After a few strokes the water began to spread out evenly. The water quickly turns black from metal contamination. They remove metal quickly. After using, I washed them in cool water as the instruction recommended. They did not come out completely clean. There is still some black on them from metal getting caught in the grit is my guess. Do not dry them off with a towel! You will have lint all over them. With a little time and patience, I will "hone" my skill and they will do exactly what I am wanting.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 19, 2013 at 9:23

Hey Stephen.  About straight shaving, have you checked out whippeddog.com?  Another site is straightrazordesigns.com. The whipped dog site is the economical one and the straight razor design site appears to be where to shop for the higher priced (and better quality I hope) items.  Of course like anything we can get equal quality in a $50 razor as we can a $200 plus razor.  But the higher priced selections should have different handle material, blade steel and any other things that also play a part in the pricing of pocket knives.  What I'm looking at right now is a $41 straight razor on whippeddog.com.  It is advertsed as being shave ready.  You don't have a picture to look at.  You don't have a selection of handle color or any of the normal selections.  At the moment I don't care about any of that stuff because all I want is to see how I like to shave with straight razors.  If I like it enough to continue I may (or may not) get higher priced (prettier) razors, soap brushes and cups as well as pre-shave and post-shave products.  Straight razor shaving seems to be a very complex activity if you want it to be.  Even at the lower levels of this method it's more complex than anything I've looked at just to remove facial hair.  Why I'm looking forward to getting into it I don't know.  I am excited about the sharpening and honing aspect of it.  But I could sharpen razors and never shave with one if that was my only interest.  Anyway, just wanted to mention the whipped dog site if you hadn't seen it.  I have emailed Larry (site owner) and he is very helpfull with questions.

 Jack

Stephen L. Corley said:

Steve and Jack, thanks for the good words. I, too, am looking at the straight razor shaving. I figure before I spend the $200 on a straight razor, I had better be able to maintain the edge. My plan is to practice first on the Mora. After that I will go to pocket knives.

Have a good day my friends.

Permalink Reply by Stephen L. Corley on September 23, 2013 at 10:23

Well, I have had the Shaptons for a few days now, and have made a few observations and opinions about them. First an observation, when I think about ceramics, I think about a hard substance. These are not hard ceramics. They are actually fairly soft. One stroke while not holding the correct angle and you can shave the corner. Second observation, I have found that even with an 8000 grit stone I have to strop to get my ideal paper cutting edge. This may be due to imperfections in my free hand honing technique. Time will tell with that.

Now for my opinions. Are they worth the money? At this point, I would have to say, probably. I'm going to do some experimenting stopping at the different grits and stropping afterwards. I believe this will give me a better feel for what each grit is doing. It may be that 8000 grit is only needed for ones ego rather than real application. I'll give more info as it comes.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 23, 2013 at 11:35

Get a cup of coffee. lol

Stephen, this is a similar review to what I was expecting.  Below is a quote from my previous post predicting it.

======

Stephen, just a word.  I don't know how high of a grit stone you have experienced so this may be a factor.  The higher grit stones produce a very smooth edge/bevel and with this level of perfection you may (or may not) need to improve your edge angle accuracy.  I say this because years ago I could get a real good edge using my 20 year old medium grit Arkansas stone but would then dull the edge if I tried to refine it on my fine grit.  I finally gave up using the fine grit stone.  Now I could be using it as my ability is better and I can control the angle better.  Just in case you experience anything like this just know it's temporary and it won't be long before your are getting your knives sharper than ever before with super smoother edges (not toothy) and mirror finish bevels.

========

For the higher grit performance to show up the skill needs to be higher also.  I have proven this to myself starting with my experience years ago with my med and fine Arkansas stones.  My skill was good enough to get a arm shaving edge with the med. stone but when I tried to “get it sharper” using the fine grit stone the edge seemed to get worse (duller).  It never seemed to get sharper as one would expect.  Instead of fighting with the situation I just quit using the fine grit stone.  I was happy.  If I would have had access to people with higher skill than I had I could have gotten the advice to pretty quickly get the fine grit stone to be beneficial.  But I didn’t.  I didn’t know anyone personally to help me.  I never even thought about knife forums.  But in the past 3-5 years of buying and using knives with better blade steel I realized I needed better stones to sharpen the harder steels.  My search started.  I have tried several and I promise your 8k Shapton glass stone is capable of getting an edge sharper than you have ever seen on a knife.  Of course not knowing exactly what you have held in your hand this may be untrue.  What I do know to be true however is I now have a 500, 1k, 2k, (4k ordered), 6k, 8k and now the 16k Shapton glass stone for my Edge Pro.  I am cheating (lol) by using the Edge Pro because it controls the angle where free hand sharpening is MUCH more difficult to master.  But by taking my time I am getting edges SO MUCH SHARPER using only the stones than I used to be able to get with stones of grits like DMT extra-fine and Spyderco ultra-fine and then using strops of grits as low as .25 micron.  Here’s another however.  However, since I can get the edge sharper and smoother using the 8k (1.84 micron) stone I can still improve the edge even more by using the strops of lower micron.  I can use a .5 micron then a .25 micron strop and get the edge even smoother and more refined.  Keep in mind that at the Shapton glass 8k grit the sharpness level is so high using the word “sharpness” is long past been the wrong word.  The word “sharp” can be used for the 2k edge.  This stone can get a pocket knife so much sharper than you will normally see on “the average pocket knife” that any stone of higher grit is not truly necessary for every day cutting needs.  What I am saying is by using the 8k stone and then a strop or two of higher grit (lower micron) you can refine (I stop using the word sharp and replace it with the word “refine”) the edge getting to the straight razor level of sharpness or refinement.  I have no reason to lie to you.  I’m saying this so you will “believe” that if you keep working on your skill you will ABSOLUTELY LOVE the 4k and 8k stones.  The thing you do need to worry about is becoming addicted to this sharpening thing.  It’s like a drug.  When you consistently get the 2k sharpness you will (can) become just satisfied but not impressed.  You want to be impressed again so then after a while the 8k stone will be working for you.  Then you do something really stupid like buy the 16k stone.  WAIT!  I just did that. Lol  I ordered the 8k stone that you have from a seller on eBay IN JAPAN so it won’t be here until the middle of next month sometime.  The 16k stone I just got is only 1”x6” so it works on the Edge Pro sharpening system.  If you are thinking of getting an Edge Pro to speed up your results because it controls the angle I’d almost recommend against it.  It would speed up results but still takes a little getting used to itself.  It’s like any new tool.  A circular saw cuts wood but after practicing you will begin to cut more accurately.  Same thing with EP.

 

I swear, I could go on and on.  My concern is that you will either give up because you think the stones are not capable of producing what they claim they can.  I wish we could be in the same room so we could see our edges.  But we can’t.  Once the improvement really starts it seems like the edges just get sharper and sharper.  This is where I am right now.  My edges are sharper now than they were a month ago.  I’m still using the same tools (stones, strops, EP, etc).  My skill is getting better.  Taking my time is one thing that is essential.  To get a mirror bevel or a truly smooth edge one stone needs to COMPLETELY REMOVE the scratch pattern left by the previous stone.  To ensure this is happening for me I started using my 2k stone after my 1k stone.  When I think the 2k stone has smoothed the scratch pattern left by the 1k stone I KEEP USING THE 2K  for several more strokes for insurance.  I do this with every stone change.

 

Have you ever tried Murray Carter’s 3-finger-test?  When you know how to do this test and your knife passes the test it is sharp with a toothy edge.  I’m consistently getting my edges to the point where they pass the test but then refine the edge so it is much “sharper” and more refined so according to Mr. Carter’s test my edge fails.  His test is based on the edge being toothy on a microscopic level.  My edges are now smooth at a microscopic level.  No edge is perfectly smooth of course.  I think straight razor sharp is about as close as we can get and I’m getting there.  Well sort of.  I think I’m knocking on the door of that sharpness level.  I have a straight razor that I’ve been sharpening and the sharpness I’m betting on it is improving also.  Sharpening (honing) one of those is different than a knife.  The basics are the same but since the results need to be so much better some refinements need to be applied to the honing technique.

 

Final note:  The quality of the steel will also make a difference in the results you get.  I only want to say one thing about this.  I am starting to shave with a straight razor and I bought a $16 razor on eBay.  I have tried briefly to get it sharp.  I CAN’T  GET IT SHARP.  I can get it pocket knife sharp but nothing even close to straight razor sharp.  Since I am getting a Boker straight razor VERY sharp I’m blaming the steel in the $16 razor.  Oh yeah, my $16 razor brand is on a list of razor’s NOT TO BUY on a shaving forum I’ve joined. Lol  Live and learn. Lol

 

When your knife gets sharp enough you can cut into the corner of the stone.  I have even felt like the edge might cut into the top of the stone when I had the angle too high one time.  Shapton glass stones are ceramic water stones.  The material is not as hard as a ceramic knife blade.  These can’t even be sharpened AT ALL with normal stones.  Ceramic knife blades need diamond stones to get them sharp.  No experience with them myself.  The Shapton glass stones are harder than most “water stones” but not harder than true ceramic.  That’s about all I know about that.

 

Long winded again.  Sorry.  These are just my opinions.  I’m no expert.  Keep practicing.  Also, put your opinions on the CKTG forum and get advise from those guys.  THEY are the experts.  They are the ones I’ve been listening to for a couple years now.

Take care,

Jack

Stephen L. Corley said:

Well, I have had the Shaptons for a few days now, and have made a few observations and opinions about them. First an observation, when I think about ceramics, I think about a hard substance. These are not hard ceramics. They are actually fairly soft. One stroke while not holding the correct angle and you can shave the corner. Second observation, I have found that even with an 8000 grit stone I have to strop to get my ideal paper cutting edge. This may be due to imperfections in my free hand honing technique. Time will tell with that.

Now for my opinions. Are they worth the money? At this point, I would have to say, probably. I'm going to do some experimenting stopping at the different grits and stropping afterwards. I believe this will give me a better feel for what each grit is doing. It may be that 8000 grit is only needed for ones ego rather than real application. I'll give more info as it comes.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 23, 2013 at 11:46

One point I failed to mention. For a 4k stone to be beneficial the blade already needs to have a good 2k edge on it. For an 8k stone to be beneficial the blade already needs to have a good 4k edge on it. With Shapton glass stones it is possible to jump from the 2k to the 8k but the 4k really helps smooth the progression. This is possibly why I could not get any use or improvement from my Arkansas fine stone after using my med. stone years ago. Maybe my blade didn't really have a GOOD med. grit edge on it. Maybe it was just good enough to shave my arm. By the way, when I say shave my arm, back then that meant shave my arm with 2 or 3 scrapes of the edge. Now the hairs just pop off my skin. BIG difference in sharpness.

Keep working and mainly have fun. The results will come. :)

Permalink Reply by Stephen L. Corley on September 23, 2013 at 19:43

Jack, as always your comments are thought provoking. I'm so OCD about sharpening, the possibility of me actually giving up on the 8000 is very slim. I was thinking out loud when I said that. I'll continue to practice and experiment until I find what works best for me. It will take time but I will get there. I looked at the Boker straight razor a few weeks ago. That is the one I have been leaning towards. 

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on September 23, 2013 at 19:49

Interesting to me to say the least. I am curious what the results will be. I honestly do not see an 8000 stone for a very long time for me?

Permalink Reply by Stephen L. Corley on September 23, 2013 at 20:52

One thing I think will help me is to build a shelf, in the storage room, that would be the right hight for me to use when sharpening. All of our counter tops are too low. It is impossible to control your hands if you are out of position and can't control your body. There are so many variables that will affect the outcome. 

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 25, 2013 at 7:12

Stephen, a shelf by ge a good idea.  I've heard several people recommend standing instead of sitting, etc.  I sit on a couch with a table I built out of angle iron with two plywood boards.  It's at a good height for me since I built it.  It's amazing what we end up doing after making a decision to get our knives sharp. :)

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on September 25, 2013 at 10:07

Stephen if you don't mind what was your total investment on this package? 

Permalink Reply by Stephen L. Corley on September 25, 2013 at 11:24

$265, yesterday I went out and bought a lapping plate. I would recommend doing it when you order the hones. You will need it.

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