Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 20:49

Straight razors.  When you are sharpening (honing)  an edge that you will be shaving with this is a new level of shharpness REQUIRED.  A slightly dull knife will get the job done.  A slightly dull straight razor is  a real pain in the (well, whatever you want to shave).  :)  I started using a straight razor about 5 months ago I think.  I was really intreagued by learning to hone it.  A forum friend gave me and old one with no handle.  I make knife handles as a hobby so he knew he gave me a nice razor and a new project. :)  The edge was dull even in pocket knife standards.  I had never honedd a straight razor before.  I got lots of advice on the "straightrazorplace.com" forum about this.  Due to the huge amount of work needed on the edge I used my EP.  The angle on a straight razor is so much more important than on about any knife.  Normally the razor spine is used to maintain the edge angle.  The edge and spine both are on the stone when honing or stropping a straight razor.  Therefore angle control is not needed to hone a razor.  Therefore the EP is capable of doing it but not as helpful as it is on knives.  I have gotten pretty good at honing razors and  personally I don't like using the EP.  This may be due to not having practiced with it enough to be good at it.  Also, I have two razors and both have good edges now so for the life of the razor only normal maintenance is needed.  That means re-honing every few weeks or months on stones and stropping between each shave.  I have thought about buying used razors on ebay or at flea markets and refurbishing them.  In cases like this the EP would probably help a lot.  When I started learning to hone razors I emailed Ben Dale about it.  He still sharpens professionally and uses the EP for razors.  But, since I only have two and only sharpen my own I wouldn't use the EP for razors.  You do need very hi grit stones for razors.  At least a 4k and 8k set and possibly a 12k.  I think I'm done.  WHEW!

Jack

Permalink Reply by Steve Scheuerman (Manx) on January 8, 2014 at 4:10

Well, due to mine and Jack's research (Thanks millions, Jack! I didn't mention it before, but much appreciated!) I went with the Edge Pro Apex. I got the Essentials kit from www.chefknivestogo.com that came with the 3 Shapton glass stones (500, 1000 and 4000), a quick-load spring, a super-magnet, a stop-collar for even better control over your angles and a little water bottle. Then I added on an Angle Cube (digital angle reader for exact angles each time), a kangaroo leather strop, and a bottle of 1 micron diamond spray for the strop. Not a bad kit, I thought, for the price. Expensive, but the lower end of their expensive with much better stones...but also less stones. The basic kit comes with 5 and some tapes (like sandpaper for the really fine grits) and a video. I figured the better stones would be best, and sacrifice number for quality as I figured it would take time to figure this out, and I'd have plenty of time to worry about getting a wider selection. Well...

Keep in mind, I haven't sharpened anything aside from chefs knives on a steel for about 30 years, so you can safely say I have zero experience. Out of the box, it took about 10min from start to assembled...including unwrapping. Simple, easy and quick. Straight forward instructions (Yes, I read them...bad man...bad man...) and a small footprint.

Now that I could touch and play with it, I sat back and watched about 5-7 Youtube videos on getting started etc. Okay, time for the plunge. Let's break out the Piece Of S...teel that I grabbed from the local Value Village for just this reason. Dull enough to hold by the blade and wave it around with a bit of a squeeze. Dull. Started with the 500 to take out all the nicks and reprofile the blade at about 17 degrees, went to the 1k grit, then the 4k. Then I played with the strop and spray.

This was my first result...no joke.

The two beige lines running somewhat diagonally on the bevel near the centre are the sides of two of my bookshelves about 10ft away from where I was sitting. Just a bit further to the right along the edge you can see the different colours of some of my books on that shelf. 

You can just make out one of my display knifes on the shelf in the edge. Not a perfect mirror, but not half bad for a first timer. It pops hairs just as well near the handle than it does in the first 1/4in of the tip. No regrets in the least! What an awesome system!

Permalink Reply by Steve Scheuerman (Manx) on January 8, 2014 at 5:06

Hmm...hard to get the focus on the edge and not the blade. It's clearer and more focused when seen.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on January 8, 2014 at 7:41

DAMN SAM!  I mean Steve. :)  An edge like that right out of the gate???  That is outstanding.   Great job.  And not only did you get great stones the kangaroo strops do a job unlike any other kind of hide or leather that I've seen.  After your 4k then stropping with the roo you will have a scarry edge.  I assume you sprayed the strop with your spray?  Gotta warn you though, you may get caught up with getting your knives sharper and sharper even when the are already shaving easily.  :)   It's like an obsession and CKTG has the products to improve almost any edge and drain almost any checking account (OR CREDIT CARD) so be careful.   LOL  Before I forget, don't get any balsa wood strops.  I did and sprayed them with high grit spray like yours.  The balsa destroyed the finish I had on an edge because the abrasiveness of the balsa itself is coarser than the spray.  So the spray was wasted and my edge was screwed up til I fixed it.  I love balsa strops but only for the coarser grit compounds.  I suggest before buying anything new ask questions first.  You can ask me.  I've learned quite a bit but if you want info from a better soarce go to the CKTG forum.  Some of them have used hundreds of different stones and strops.  Ken Schwartz (Ken's Corner) is an excellent guy, eager to help and understands this knife edge business as good as anybody IMO.  He created the CBN, poly-crystaline, and other sprays of microns down to .1 micron and under.  So maybe his eagerness to help is so he can sell more stuff but that's ok.  I have sprays of .5, .25 and .1 micron and they do a great job.  They get an unbelievable edge just a bit sharper.  BUT, I don't think this additional sharpness makes the knife a better performer.  I can tell the difference in the sharpness whan I slice phone book paper and paying attention.  But, when cutting normal stuff the knife was already a scalpul after using what you have now.  What I'm saying is take a breath before you start spending $45+ on finer grit sprays than you have now.  Which spray did you get BTW?  Diamond, CBN or any of the sprays at REALLY embarassing prices?  lol  Also, and I believe this about any tool, your skill with a new tool will improve and that will improve the results even more.  The EP is a great tool but after a while you will pick up little "tricks" to get even a little more accuracy that you already got. SO, your results will improve (if you can believe that) without spending any more money.  Warning:  Be careful when using the strop.  It's really easy to cut the leather by mistake.  Just go slow.  THe strop works even with a few nicks but it's just irritating to cut it up.  That's one thing I like about the balsa strops.  It's harder to cut them.  I don't use kangaroo much on the EP because I get in a hurry and oops, cut the strop :mad:  I use it but have to be real careful.  Plus, your 4k stone will put an edge on a knife that is sharp enough you don't NEED to strop.  It's already REALLY sharp.  Keep practicing on your "practice" knife and in a week or two using the EP will be like walking down the sidewalk.  Don't get in a hurry with each stroke.  Be slow and deliberate.  The EP controls the angle but your "touch" and "finesse" will improve.  It's hard to picture until you feel it for yourself.  Be careful at the tip of the blade also.  I get in a hurry and when stroking the tip I go too far and let the stone drop off the tip of the blade.  Doing this once can round off a nice sharp tip.  Crap, I'll stop now.  Oh yeah, Ben Dale, the inventor of the EP is a great guy also.  Contact him with any questions.  He replies to email fast.  Keep up with the results and improvements.  Take care.

Jack

Permalink Reply by Steve Scheuerman (Manx) on January 8, 2014 at 12:20

Thanks again, Jack. As usual, great advice there! I can see where the desire to get insane can arise, but I like to think I'm a bit more practical. LOL. I may pick up another stone or two, and something for flattening, but I think I'm about set. Maybe some 0.5 micron spray for touching up knives folks pay to get sharpened just to get rid of those scratches (depending on the usage, micro serrations can be a good thing in some knives). I'm debating a 10k grit stone, and then do away with the strops, I'm not sure. the 30k stones are a bit out of my price range at $250.

Done 2 kitchen knives and a cleaver (all my "practice" blades) and am thinking of going out and trying to cut up my driveway with them so I can "fix" them all over again! More videos today, more reading of the CKTG forums and some more practice. Maybe I'll try a Katana! Huh? Too soon? Yeah, yer probably right...LOL. Anyway, not a bad way to spend a night...sitting in the living room sharpening and watching (kinda) TV and chatting with the wife. Great system!

Permalink Reply by Steve Scheuerman (Manx) on January 8, 2014 at 12:57

Sorry...I forgot. I'm using the 1 micron 10 carat diamond spray.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on January 8, 2014 at 15:17

I'd advise a flattening stone next.  The next stone (Shapton glass) you might want would be the 8k.  The 6k is too close to  the 4 and there isn't a 10k in EP size.  But to keep the stones working best they need to be clean and flat.  But the clean part you'll  notice first.  The stones will glaze over with the metal from the knife.  WHat I do is I hold the stones under running water and scrub them with a scotch pad after using them.  Or while I'm using them I keep them c lean with a rag.  But after a while you will need to flatten them.  They will get thinner (dish) in the middle.  A flattening stone will flatten and clean them and get them back to brand new.  I do that only when I have to because I feel like I'm washing expensive stone down the drain.  But, that's part of using water stones.  And we don't really waste that much.  Some people claim they flatten after each use.  I don't.  But you will need a flattening stone soon.  THe most economical one I know of is the 140 grit diamond stone on CKTG.  It's the one I have and it works.  I think it's $30.  Or you could get the Shapton glass diamond plate for about $370.  Another good option is to use a DMT coarse or extra-coarse diamond stone.  THey work great, they are also great sharpening stones when you need coarse bench stones.  A DMT stone is about $45 on cutleryshoppe.com.  These are stones you can use as a sharpening stone also where the 140 grit stone is much too coarse IMO.  It may not be the quality either.  I don't know.  You may notice that the finer grit stones will glaze over faster than the coarser grits.  The pores on finer grit stones are smaller and don't rinse out as easy I think.  If you do get anything finer than the 4k you will need the flattening stone sooner. 

One thing you want to pay attention to is not spending too much time on one spot on an edge.  You always want to use long strokes along the edge.  If you stroke a lot in one area you can remove more steel and create a recurve shape.  Just make sure your strokes pass over long areas on the edge.  This is because the stones are only 1" wide.  But, being only 1" wide you can sharpen knives with a recurve shape.  EP even has 1/2" wide stones for knives with drastic recurves.  So the fact that the stones are only 1" wide means they can cause a problem unless you know about it but also they can be used for recurve blades.  You can't use a 2" or 3" wide bench stone for recurves.  You can use 2" wide stones on the EP.  THey just need to be glued to an aluminum blank. 

Our kitchen knives are not expensive and I have use two of them to practice with.  I dulled them, sharpened them, dulled them again, etc.  The ones I chose have lots of steel from edge to spine si I don't need to worry about grinding away too much steel.    Pocket knives don't have a whole lot of steel to use up without it becoming obvious it's being sharpened a lot.  Let us know when every knife in the house is sharp. :)  Shouldn't take long. :)asfsadfasdfsdf  Have you tried the magnet?  I couldn't imagine it being much help and never got one.  Does it help at all?  The collar is going to help big time after your stones are different thicknesses.  Until then you won't really need it.  Instead of the spring the EP comes with a 1" copper tube.  Did you get that?  I have the spring. I love the spring. I use the spring and will keep using it.  BUT, the reason Ben didn't use a spring on the Apex model (the Pro model has a spring) is because if you push the stone forward with the knife edge off the end of the EP table a bit far the rear stone holder can hit the edge which can push the stone holder back enough to let the stone fall out.  If it falls on your edge, BAD NEWS.  But using the copper tube the stone holder can't be pushed back, dropping the stone.  Play with this and you'll see what I mean (unless you already know about it).  By knowing about the possibility I easily avoid it.  The spring makes stone changes a bit faster.  But if you are used to unscrewing the knob to change stones that is pretty fast also.  One thing about the collar is with it on the vertical rod it doesn't let the angle be set under about 12 degrees per side.  Without it the EP can go down to about 9.5 degrees. So, I cut plastic on the EP base around where the vertical rod goes so the collar slides down to where the top of the collar is even with the plastic base on the EP.  I can show you a picture of this if you want to see it.  I'm used to what my EP looks like.  When I see them in videos normally they look new and still shine.  MIne looks like it has been drug through a rock pile and mud hole. :)  I found a better way to put the blue tape on the EP.  That secret will cost you a dollar though. ;)  After it gets wet and the knife blades sliding around on it the tape wants to let go.  No big deal, just a pain if you are in the middle of sharpening a knife.  It stays on there longer if I put it on from the bottom (almost) of the EP to the top and fold it down.  Two strips of tape covers the EP blade table.  You do need to cut the tape where the center notch is to let the guide slide back and forth.  Small issue. 

Jack

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on January 8, 2014 at 15:50

I apologize for getting so long winded.  One more thing though (for the future).  If you want a GOOD mirror finish you will need either an 8k Shapton or a few more strops.  The 8k stone is the first in the Shapton glass series that will give you a good mirror finish that will reflect perfect images from far away.  You already have that almost.  The 4k looks great but I bet it's still a bit hazy looking.  After using the8k ON A PROPERLY PREPARED EDGE you can take your knife outside and see a perfect reflection of the leaves and limbs in the trees above your head.  Two thing are needed for this distance. The main thing is a flat bevel.  The EP takes care of that.  The stones and your performance are what takes care of the actual finish.  The key is to SET THE BEVEL WITH YOUR FIRST STONE.  Get the bevel flat and use very light strokes as you are finishing with each grit.  The light strokes are important.  I think it sorts of smooths out the scratch pattern for that grit.  With every stone use several passes on each side with very light strokes before going to the next grit.  On the last stone use very light pressure also. LIGHT PRESSURE can't be emphasized enough.  Anyone who won't or can't use light pressure will never get a knife edge as sharp or pretty as someone who develops the skill.  When I say light strokes I mean barely touching.  This is true for the EP, WE, free hand, every method.  This was not my discovery.  Every experienced sharpener says this and I learned from them.  I don't think I discovered anything on my own.  I have had trouble believing  what people say and developing the "touch" or "feeling" they talk about.  But that stuff just shows up one day.  One day I took a knife off the EP so much sharper than any knife before it was almost miraculous.  The sharpness I mean, compared to before that.  Now I can do that any time I want to (and am feeling good).  It's like being good at basketball but somedays you play like a great player. Then a year later you are playing like a great player a lot more often because you have been practicing.   You may be thinking "I understand that with sports but how is that the same when sharpening a knife?".  That's what I meant when I said I had a hard time believing what I was told.  I'm done again. 

Jack

Permalink Reply by Steve Scheuerman (Manx) on January 9, 2014 at 9:12

Never be sorry about being passionate about something, Jack! I am eating up all the knowledge I can from your posts, and I am finding them quite informative.I really appreciate the advice!

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on January 9, 2014 at 10:44

Here is a picture of holding a knife when stropping with just the weight of the blade on the strop.  The  handle is resting on my fingers.  In addition to this you can adjust the amount of "weight" by moving your fingers closer or farther back on the handle.  The closer your fingers are to the balance point the less pressure (weight) there is on the strop.  The same thing needs to be done with the EP but you don't have a balance point to work with.  You can let the strop rest on top of the edge but using a little upward pressure with your fingers you can reduce the amount of pressure.  This is true for strops and stones both.  THis is a skill you need to develop over time.  I have one strop that has a piece of steel instead of aluminum as the blank so it is about 4 times the weight of the others. So just the weight of the stone/strop can change from one to another.

][IMG]http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy288/jackknifeh/Sharpening/Stro...[/IMG][/URL]

BTW, the strop is a 2"x6" bare kangaroo strop.  It can be used as a bench strop or in the EP.  So can the 1" wide ones though.  The EP stones are the perfect size for carrying into the woods or whatever.

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on January 10, 2014 at 18:38

So Manx, after a week of sharpening how is the Edge Pro treating you?

Permalink Reply by Steve Scheuerman (Manx) on January 12, 2014 at 21:10

Extremely well! Sharp knives abound...and an overly sharp cleaver too...LOL. Got a little case for my stones and sprays, a new pyrex dish to keep it in, now I just want to find a case for the whole thing, if I can. Maybe modify an old briefcase.

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