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Permalink Reply by Howard P Reynolds on March 25, 2016 at 11:13

As John McCain says, it ain't lookin so good.  I remembered that early knives used celluloid - like the clear girlie knives from the '20s/'30s.  So I found this article from 1999 about the subject.

http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on March 25, 2016 at 11:27

Howard,

Excellent article!  Thank you for sharing it

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Permalink Reply by Howard P Reynolds on March 25, 2016 at 11:52

One salient point mentioned in the article is:

"At the time a pocket knife was made, it wasn't thought that it would need to last as long as we collectors have made necessary. In a Remington study, it was determined that the average pocket knife had a life span of three years. So even if they knew at that time that celluloid would decompose, it was not a matter for concern since all things wear out and will only serve a given workable period of time. "

So a lot of these celluloid knives were broken, lost, or worn out before cellulose decomposition became a factor.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Schuchman on March 25, 2016 at 11:56

Thanks, man! You know, I saw that article a few years ago when I first looked into the celluloid problem and forgot about it. In light of all the new info I've gotten in the last couple of days, I think that about sinks it. Especially since the evidence of decomposition has already begun, I can't trust the material to remain stable. This celluloid is a double-edged sword, huh? Sorry, bad joke.

As pretty and striking as the handles are now and as collectible as it may be, it won't be worth anything as a pile of rust. I'm going to change the handles. Decided and done. Or have someone do it. Probably get the wood from my luthier buddy, may ask a local knife builder, Smitty, who I've bought from before to do the actual work and avoid shipping.

Wish me luck. Thanks for the advice and info everyone. VERY glad I joined iKC.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Schuchman on March 25, 2016 at 11:59

3 years? Kind of the Chinese approach to A/C units and appliances!

Howard P Reynolds said:

One salient point mentioned in the article is:

"At the time a pocket knife was made, it wasn't thought that it would need to last as long as we collectors have made necessary. In a Remington study, it was determined that the average pocket knife had a life span of three years. So even if they knew at that time that celluloid would decompose, it was not a matter for concern since all things wear out and will only serve a given workable period of time. "

So a lot of these celluloid knives were broken, lost, or worn out before cellulose decomposition became a factor.

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Permalink Reply by Howard P Reynolds on March 25, 2016 at 12:11

Hahahaha.  Maybe it is that at the time Remington did the study we were still a mostly agrarian society when folks used their knives hard, and every day - unlike today when lots of pocket knives cut string, tape, or paper a couple days a week; except for people still on the farm.

Richard Schuchman said:

3 years? Kind of the Chinese approach to A/C units and appliances!

Howard P Reynolds said:

One salient point mentioned in the article is:

"At the time a pocket knife was made, it wasn't thought that it would need to last as long as we collectors have made necessary. In a Remington study, it was determined that the average pocket knife had a life span of three years. So even if they knew at that time that celluloid would decompose, it was not a matter for concern since all things wear out and will only serve a given workable period of time. "

So a lot of these celluloid knives were broken, lost, or worn out before cellulose decomposition became a factor.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Schuchman on March 25, 2016 at 14:12

Not to belabor the point, but in the interest of a temporary solution and preventative measures, do you think forcing a patina would help? I know it helps prevent rust on high carbon blades. Maybe dipping the whole thing in some vinegar would help protect the backspring as well (though I guess I should be careful vinegar doesn't cause celluloid to erupt into flame!). Maybe just spreading some mustard on the blade and backspring? Ideas?

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Permalink Reply by Howard P Reynolds on March 25, 2016 at 14:51

Use it or lose it.  My idea is to put it in your pocket.  It's a looker, and if re-handled, collector value goes away.  At that point it might as well be a user, so make it a user today.  Maybe using it every day instead of storing it will prolong it's life.  Making it an EDC will let you check it out every day to inhibit rust, and it is a nice conversation piece.  You'll get compliments until it falls apart - then re-handle it. 

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Permalink Reply by Richard Schuchman on March 25, 2016 at 15:13

The EDC idea is actually pretty good. I'm fairly easy on my knives, so it's not going to get scratched up cutting fruit and paper and tape. But if I wait until it falls apart, then it's too late. I want to save it before the blade and backspring get corroded, and the process has already started.

Jan Carter sent me a link (http://www.finneyknives.com/) which tells me it'll be worth what I put into it. It may not be collectible as a classic Case Christmas tree, but it's still a rare Case sabre grind toothpick, and as long as the handles look good, I should be able to get out of it what I put into it, not that I really want to sell it anyway. I got it because I like to collect toothpicks.

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on March 25, 2016 at 15:39

Richard-I like Howard's idea- Forcing a patina effectively destroys collector value, with no guarantee it will protect your blade from gassing.(it might, then again it might not). It's unproven one way or the other. Kinda like swatting a mosquito with a Howitzer !! (LOL).As I said before, Flitz can reverse the blade damage for about $6 plus provide a protective layer to the steel. I have a BUNCH  of knives, and use Flitz on all of them. Before I went to the extreme of a patina (unless that was the look I really, truly wanted),I would just break the current handles off, and wait for the rehandle. Just my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Schuchman on March 25, 2016 at 15:51

Good point. I didn't realize a patina was so permanent and destructive. I've taken a few patinas off with metal polish and then regretted it when they started pitting.

If it comes to breaking the handles off, what's the best way? Just shove a screwdriver between the metal and celluloid and twist?

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on March 25, 2016 at 15:55

Now here is the big picture, $64 question !!  As Howard so aptly pointed out, celluloid handled knives were not  originally meant to be collector's knives. The question is, why would Case Classics have a whole program devoted to limited edition, solely meant to be collectible knives, knowing the deterioration factor of celluloid ?? Ignorance, greed, or a new age game of "Hot Potato"?? I don't want to harp on the Case Classic line, as many other companies have used celluloid in knives meant to be collector knives. Just makes you wonder what the thought process was with these companies.

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