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Horseman's knife .

You all know the story , I guess , you hear that there is another guy in the firm who likes knives . My heart usually sinks , as the knives he likes often turn out to be a pile of cheap junk and you need to find something to say !!

One of the mechanics at the firm I work for told me he had a knife I might like , well maybe , but I went to have a look and this is what he pulls out of his bag

I think he said it was his Grandad's and was left in an old jacket in the garden shed . Nice knife I think you would agree , I have had a brief look on the web and seen a few horseman's knives that look similar though none with a pruning blade . Richard , the mechanic , say's his Grandfather had a business growing roses at least that's what I think he said I was taken aback by the obvious quality of the knife and was trying to take pics in the Garage in poor light . The name on the handle is his Grandfather , the manufacturer is on the main blade and on the tang of one of the other blades is the name of the supplier . Now the picture is too poor to make out the supplier so I will have to check with Richard as to the name .

The guy told me someone had offered him £400 for the knife at one time . Personally I have no idea of the value of such a knife and I don't know if he is interested in selling it , I wouldn't if it had been my Grandfather's . It just shows what is out there hiding in peoples pockets though doesn't it . I have little knowledge of old knives but this pattern is one that I have admired in the past even though I have never handled one before . I remember Ken Erickson showing pics of one that he had made a year or so ago , or at least I think I do . If anyone has information or any interest in the knife I will try to get better photo's .

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Permalink Reply by Bryan W on October 12, 2016 at 18:30

Wow John, that is a beauty. Appears to be English, I'll need to check my references. Your photos are actually quite good, as you can see the "Encore", "Thomas Turner & Co." The tang is a bit tougher, but should be able to be determined.

This Horseman's knife pattern is actually worth a good amount, and I have to agree, this configuration is not seen too often, with the pruner blade and saw. Beautiful condition, appears all original and complete. NICE find and it the man decides to sell, he could get a nice amount for it! These are great patterns. Actually scored my first one (German made) earlier this year, happily added to my own collection.

Thanks for sharing!!

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Permalink Reply by John Bamford on October 13, 2016 at 9:27

Thanks for the advice Bryan , I will try to arrange for a better shot of the tang stamp as soon as I can . They certainly are a handful these knives , I guess they made sturdier pockets back then !!

Bryan W said:

Wow John, that is a beauty. Appears to be English, I'll need to check my references. Your photos are actually quite good, as you can see the "Encore", "Thomas Turner & Co." The tang is a bit tougher, but should be able to be determined.

This Horseman's knife pattern is actually worth a good amount, and I have to agree, this configuration is not seen too often, with the pruner blade and saw. Beautiful condition, appears all original and complete. NICE find and it the man decides to sell, he could get a nice amount for it! These are great patterns. Actually scored my first one (German made) earlier this year, happily added to my own collection.

Thanks for sharing!!

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on October 13, 2016 at 16:31

THOMAS TURNER & CO - Suffolk Works, Sheffield Location address: 1 Suffolk Road from the Directory of 1852. Additionally:

- founded 1802
- 'Encore' trade mark granted 3 years later
- listed in 1820's in Norfolk St
- the first Thomas succeeded by son Thomas (born 29 Jan 1829), later joined by brothers Benjamin and William.
- the company mixed steel and tool manufacture with knifemaking.
- Thomas Junr was Master Cutler in 1871, retired and sold the business in 1893 (died 1916).
- sold to Albert Hobson. Turner's now employed about 300. Hobson expanded his business and bought other companies.
- Suffolk works now had become one of the biggest cutlery factories in Sheffield
- became limited liablity Co. 1918 (Hobson's two sons had been killed in the war). In 1919 became part of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers Ltd (group led by Needham, Veall & Tyzack).
- Turner's did not survive the depression. Bought by Viners 1932

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Permalink Reply by John Bamford on October 14, 2016 at 7:47

Thanks for the information Jan I have passed it on .

Jan Carter said:

THOMAS TURNER & CO - Suffolk Works, Sheffield Location address: 1 Suffolk Road from the Directory of 1852. Additionally:

- founded 1802
- 'Encore' trade mark granted 3 years later
- listed in 1820's in Norfolk St
- the first Thomas succeeded by son Thomas (born 29 Jan 1829), later joined by brothers Benjamin and William.
- the company mixed steel and tool manufacture with knifemaking.
- Thomas Junr was Master Cutler in 1871, retired and sold the business in 1893 (died 1916).
- sold to Albert Hobson. Turner's now employed about 300. Hobson expanded his business and bought other companies.
- Suffolk works now had become one of the biggest cutlery factories in Sheffield
- became limited liablity Co. 1918 (Hobson's two sons had been killed in the war). In 1919 became part of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers Ltd (group led by Needham, Veall & Tyzack).
- Turner's did not survive the depression. Bought by Viners 1932

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on October 14, 2016 at 13:06

John- Sorry for the late reply but I have had a series of problems this past week. This is a wonderful and valuable knife, more accurately described as a sportsman's knife rather than a horseman's knife although often still referred to as such. Sportsman's knives had more varied usages rather than leaning towards a horseman's usages, but still often referred to as the same thing. Thomas Turner & Co. was a large and well known Sheffield cutler and acquired another well known Sheffield cutler, Wingfield, Rowbotham, & Co. in 1898 .For a time ,Thomas Turner & Co. were Cutlers To His Majesty, Joseph Rodgers & Sons being the only other I am aware of. Your friends knife is handled in checkered horn and is unusual with it's pruning blade and the fact it still has the original lanyard chain. As stated before, easily worth several hundred dollars. The tang stamps and purveyors information could help determine it's exact vintage, as there are some pretty good historical records on this company. As a little bit of trivia, the notch at the front on the bottom of the handle was so that one could use it as a nutcracker by closing the hoof pick blade. I personally would be a little squeamish to crack nuts with a blade that might have recently have picked manure out of a horse's hoof. Maybe that's just me. LOL. Lastly here is a link to a partial Thomas Turner 1902 catalogue. It shows a great many sportsman knife configurations, including the saw blade, but none with the pruning blade. Perhaps the pruning blade was a special order from your friend's ancestor, as I have read that some of these old sportsman's knives had up to 40 blade combinations. Here is the link to the catalogue pages, which on the same site also offers other info on Thomas Turner and his knives and razors.( the links are very informative).

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/304213-Thomas-Turner-19...(Picture-heavy)

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Permalink Reply by John Bamford on October 14, 2016 at 14:13

John , thanks so much for the fantastic information !! You always seem able to find out about the old knives , once again thanks a lot .

John McCain said:

John- Sorry for the late reply but I have had a series of problems this past week. This is a wonderful and valuable knife, more accurately described as a sportsman's knife rather than a horseman's knife although often still referred to as such. Sportsman's knives had more varied usages rather than leaning towards a horseman's usages, but still often referred to as the same thing. Thomas Turner & Co. was a large and well known Sheffield cutler and acquired another well known Sheffield cutler, Wingfield, Rowbotham, & Co. in 1898 .For a time ,Thomas Turner & Co. were Cutlers To His Majesty, Joseph Rodgers & Sons being the only other I am aware of. Your friends knife is handled in checkered horn and is unusual with it's pruning blade and the fact it still has the original lanyard chain. As stated before, easily worth several hundred dollars. The tang stamps and purveyors information could help determine it's exact vintage, as there are some pretty good historical records on this company. As a little bit of trivia, the notch at the front on the bottom of the handle was so that one could use it as a nutcracker by closing the hoof pick blade. I personally would be a little squeamish to crack nuts with a blade that might have recently have picked manure out of a horse's hoof. Maybe that's just me. LOL. Lastly here is a link to a partial Thomas Turner 1902 catalogue. It shows a great many sportsman knife configurations, including the saw blade, but none with the pruning blade. Perhaps the pruning blade was a special order from your friend's ancestor, as I have read that some of these old sportsman's knives had up to 40 blade combinations. Here is the link to the catalogue pages, which on the same site also offers other info on Thomas Turner and his knives and razors.( the links are very informative).

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/304213-Thomas-Turner-19...(Picture-heavy)

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Permalink Reply by John Bamford on October 14, 2016 at 14:57

My friend Richard has sent me the best picture of the tang stamp that he can get , it doesn't mean much to me . Is it familiar to you John , or anyone else .

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on October 15, 2016 at 7:22

John- The tang stamp reads-SUFFOLK WORKS.This was the name of the factory Thomas Turner built in 1834. They did sometimes use a tang stamp that read T.TURNER SUFFOLK WORKS. They used that stamp circa 1834-1890 according to my information .If your friend can match that up with his grandfather's own personal history, he can probably get a pretty close approximation as to his knife's age. Hope this helps you determine its age a little closer. Once again, a beautiful old knife and a treasure to see.

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Permalink Reply by John Bamford on October 15, 2016 at 8:43

Thanks once again John .

John McCain said:

John- The tang stamp reads-SUFFOLK WORKS.This was the name of the factory Thomas Turner built in 1834. They did sometimes use a tang stamp that read T.TURNER SUFFOLK WORKS. They used that stamp circa 1834-1890 according to my information .If your friend can match that up with his grandfather's own personal history, he can probably get a pretty close approximation as to his knife's age. Hope this helps you determine its age a little closer. Once again, a beautiful old knife and a treasure to see.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on October 15, 2016 at 12:20

GOOD WORK John!

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Permalink Reply by John Bamford on October 26, 2016 at 12:42

Just got another photo from this old knife and it appears to be from the supplier "Thornhill and Co" .

A little info that I have found so far , though I am no John McCain .

Walter Thornhill was a cutler, jeweller and silversmith. His company can be traced back to a cutler named Joseph Gibbs, based at 137 Bond Street in London. By 1772 the business was in the hands of his son, James Gibbs, and in 1800, was renamed as Gibbs & Lewis. By 1805 the company was being run by John James Thornhill and John Morley, under the name of Morley & Thornhill. They moved to 144 New Bond Street in 1810. This partnership was dissolved in 1823 and the firm was renamed as John James Thornhill & Co., remaining at the same address. Thornhill acquired Royal Warrants of appointment to Queen Victoria, the Prince and Princess of Wales as well as other members of the Royal Family.

John James Thornhill died in 1848 and his son Walter took over the firm, to be known as Walter Thornhill, shortly after. Walter broadened the company's area of expertise as cutlers and silversmiths by moving into the manufacture of dressing cases, writing boxes, desks and other luxury pieces. Thornhill soon built up a great reputation for the quality of his work, attaining a prize medal at the Great Exhibition of 1851, the International Exhibition in Paris of 1855, the International Exhibition of 1862 and then multiple medals at the 1878 International Exposition in Paris.

By 1875 Walter's son, Hubert Thornhill, had entered the business which became styled as Thornhill & Co. By 1895 the firm had become a limited liability company, opening new premises at 9 High Street, Kensington. The firm continued to trade until c.1914.

So this was a good quality knife sold by an upmarket London supplier , as far as I can see .

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on October 26, 2016 at 21:13

WHAT GREAT INFO FOR THIS KNIFE ENTHUSIAST ! Thank you because I learned a lot in this quest for knowledge, I will be adding this discussion as a link in the reference group