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San Mai, the words are now OWNED??
I started seeing some folks complaining that they had received letters from Cold Steel stating that they now owned the trade mark to the wording "San Mai"
My first thought was that it was a misunderstanding. But apparently it is not, Cold Steel has indeed purchased the words.
As early as 3 B.C. the Samurai Sword was used as an offering to the Gods (emperors). There were a lot of problems that faced the smiths in ancient times. Razor sharp would break off against armor and a softer steel would bend. Solution? A softer skin cover or skin over the top of a harder blade steel...hmmmm, let's see what shall I name that, something like 3 piece forging? Translated that becomes san mai.
So, OK...I guess you could trade mark the words, everything without an owner is for sale right? But is it the right thing to do?
If you do trademark it, do you then impose upon the knife world to call something as ancient as SanMai by another name?
So here we are, what do you think of the turn of events AND any suggestions on what we will now call San Mai??
Tags: Mai, San, controversy
Replies to This Discussion
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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on -
No .. I don't think it's right or correct.
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The term "san mai" historically refers to forge welded laminated blade steel as you describe above. A hard ..to the point of being brittle.. center core laminated with a layer of softer steel on either side.
Recently .. it's been used in a more general sense .. to describe forge welded laminated blade steel that has a high carbon HARD center core laminated with multiple layers of softer & more corrosive resistant outer layers. e.g. VG10 core laminated w/ multiple layers of 420 series stainless steel on either side.
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How can you "buy" a pre-existing term ?? Who do you buy it from ??
Rhetorical .. I know the process.
However .. it does NOT seem right.
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just an opinion .. mine
D ale
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KnifeMakerPermalink Reply by Chris Sievert on -
Yes and at one time Microsoft Trademarked "Windows" it was thrown out of the Courts. No one can Trademark words of Common Usage.
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FeaturedPermalink Reply by dead_left_knife_guy on -
Wow, I am so caught on this one -- I have a bunch of opinions, but I don't think it would be good for me to express them.
Word of this is making its way around the internet as these things do, but apparently Lynn Thompson & Cold Steel have been sending out such letters since the 80's when Cold Steel trademarked "San Mai". I would like to know if they trademarked the lowercase version of the term, "san mai," or if the trademark simply applies to the capitalized "San Mai"?
Problem is, "san mai" is a description of the blade's composition, & therefore "Apple" can trademark computers & smart phones, but not its own brand of apples for sale in the produce aisle. I don't know, but I would guess that the term's relative obscurity in contemporary American culture is a major component to the success of Cold Steel's ability to trademark this phrase.
Anyway, a hypothetical scenario: A group of Japanese tourists come to the US to partake in a survival school because, y'know, they're all the rage. Let's say they go to Dave Canterbury's Pathfinder School, or Creek Stewart's Willow Haven Outdoor (schools that both most likely have trademarked names, by the way), both of which sell Mora knives, & provide instruction to students using Moras. The schools charge their standard group instruction rate, & each is a for-profit enterprise. Let's also say the Japanese students require a translator. One of the students asks about the Mora knife they're spending so much time learning to use, & the instructor states that it's a laminated steel -- which would likely translate to "san mai." Would Cold Steel have any right to a percentage of the schools' training fees? Would it matter that both schools actually sell Moras on their website? Would it matter who provided the translator?
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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on
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DLKG,
I am so with you! What are we to call it ? It is a description and in reality not even an English word! So now that has me thinking.....we trademarked a word from Japan?
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FeaturedPermalink Reply by dead_left_knife_guy on -
Yep, we did. Or, the US Patent & Trademark Office allowed it.
But in another example, Le Creuset -- French for "the crucible", I'd bet that's trademarked. BUT, it's arbitrary to apply it to cookware, so it passes that part of the test.
Ontario Knives -- named after a place, but the company likely can only use the trademark in relation to knives.
Ka-bar, if legend has it right, is named after a phrase in something similar to English but not quite ("kill a bear"), also likely trademarked.
I think what's probably most offensive about the Cold Steel story is their approach. "We only send these letters out because we have to protect our trademark, we're legally required to." As if someone was going to get arrested if they failed to send those letters out to knife makers. "We've never sued any knife makers over this" -- well, what happens when it's determined that's what they need to do in order to enforce their trademark? They'll sue.
Unless they won't sue, for fear that the trademark will be overturned -- something only more likely in an evermore diverse society.
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It is certainly what I find most offensive. Just because you CAN do something does not mean it is right to do it
I think what's probably most offensive about the Cold Steel story is their approach. "We only send these letters out because we have to protect our trademark, we're legally required to." As if someone was going to get arrested if they failed to send those letters out to knife makers.
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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on -
I'm not that familiar Cold Steel's product ..so.. this is an honest question.
Does the company ..Cold Steel.. apply their trademarked "San Mai" to laminated steel
..or..
more arbitrarily .. to all blade steel they use ??
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Re: earlier response by DLKG ....
Yeah .. what jerks !!!
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"We only do it because we have to.".
I mean .. how rude & crude.
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What happened to the "high road"
Re: Boothill blades
I've more respect for Queen after that one.
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Again .. just an opinion
specifically .. mine
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D ale
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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on -
Modern san mai
spine of a blade
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Dale,
To the best of my knowledge they really are only applying it to tier San Mai products. I have to be honest, what I know about their San Mai products is what I have read. What I have read though is very good, even the folks upset by this letter and action are saying the admire the steel. As for the high road...would it not have been better publicity to have started a campaign that they are they only trademarked San Mai? It would have gotten the word out without the offense, in my opinion.
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Permalink Reply by Syd Carr on
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There are attorneys out there more than happy to sell their services to register any word or group of words as a trademark, but they also know it might be difficult, (and uber expensive), to enforce that trademark. A trademark won't stop the Chinese under any circumstance. I assume Cold Steel plans on marketing a series of knives with that name, implying they are made in the way the name implies and doesn't want anyone to steal their thunder.
Not necessarily a RIGHT thing to do, but a legal thing to do. I suppose CS thinks they can make a buck on it so why not?
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Just seems doing the right thing would have been better. They didnt have to send letters to get attention. They would have done better to have just marketed theirs as the trademarked steel !
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Permalink Reply by Andy Moon on
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Hi Jan -
Although Lynn Thompson might think any use of the term San Mai is universally his, the patents are specifically for the use of his "San Mai III" - it is very specific. As it stands, no knife should be promoted as San Mai III, and San Mai by itself is open domain.
LT has always been a bit of a jerk as a businessman in my experience. No worries, his San Mai nonsense has cultivated spirited use of the term San Mai from the custom knife maker community, and you'll see a lot of "San Mai" knives at Blade this year if you can believe what I am hearing from the custom makers. ;^)
Lynn better bring a lot of legal letters lol.
best
mqqn
White River Knives
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