Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by National Knife Museum on July 16, 2013 at 10:51

   Jack,

   WOW great question, yet what a can of worms :-)

   All the different patterns have different histories of origin.  For example (follow link) Barlow Knife History, Buck company (and a little about the buck 110).  Most every time though questions about patterns can be answered through using any/all of books by either Bernard Levine or by John E. Goins.  As well there is a virtual ton of information by Huston Price  and many others using any of "The Standard Knife Collector's Guide" (my personal most used volume is the Fifth Edition by Roy Ritchie and Ron Stewart).

 

   To answer your question briefly...there is no short answer, no one place to get it all...not even the internet.  Unfortunately throughout time we have let fact and fiction mingle, breed and produce many of the stories and even legends that we are all so familiar with (its the proverbial "grapevine" that we as humans use so often). 

 

   You should read four to six articles pertaining to the history of any given pattern, from those article you can generally get a pretty good idea of common fact vs. fictional parts...again though even that method has flaws.  For example the Bowie pattern has a rich, wild and adventurous history...unfortunately though most of it that we know and embrace is not based on historic fact but most typically from what we saw in the movie "The Iron Mistress" with Alan Ladd (a classic movie btw).  When the legend of the Bowie knife began it started with a knife fight on a Mississippi river sand bar.  Newspapers reported that Jim Bowie had gotten into a knife fight with a gentleman (I forget his name), and killed him with "A large butcher knife"  from that small beginning, grew the stories we now know.

 

   Many, many (ok almost all) things relating to the history of patterns can be summed up by saying that the invented pattern filled a specific need.  Knives are tools, not unlike todays flat head screwdriver or a hammer.  Certain characteristics of a blade make it better suited for a specific cutting task.  For example the big rounded tip of a skinning knife vs. a coping blade or even a sheepsfoot blade.  Yes the sheepsfoot or coping blade would still skin a deer, rabbit or anything else you were aiming to skin, but the long sweeping curve, that particular arc of the blade on a "skinner" makes it a far better and more efficient blade choice.  As for handle/overall shape think about comfort while preforming the task, is it curved or straight?  Ever try to stab an object with a straight handled knife vs. a curved handle knife? 

   As you can see this journey is just beginning.  The answers are out there Jack, just have to take them 1 pattern at a time and do as much research as you can to sort truth from fiction.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on July 16, 2013 at 11:37

I was afraid I'd  get an answer like this.  You were supposed to say "Company A made a medium stockman.  It was so successful that people asked for a little one and a big one.  Then other companies copied it as a result of it's versatile  usability.  Same story for other models.

See how easy my answer was?  :)

Seriously, I may look into this in pieces as time goes on but not as a project to start.  I can imagine how incomplete some of the old records are.  Then again we get surprised at what we do find when we dig.  Of course I wouldn't be digging.  I'd be reading what the "diggers" wrote.

This will teach me to think before I ask a question about every little thought I have on the forum. :)  Thanks for your reply and the sources for me to check.  I'll look into it a little and see if it keeps my interest.  At least that will keep me away from the pages that sell knives. lol

Jack

National Knife Museum said:

   Jack,

   WOW great question, yet what a can of worms :-)

   All the different patterns have different histories of origin.  For example (follow link) Barlow Knife History, Buck company (and a little about the buck 110).  Most every time though questions about patterns can be answered through using any/all of books by either Bernard Levine or by John E. Goins.  As well there is a virtual ton of information by Huston Price  and many others using any of "The Standard Knife Collector's Guide" (my personal most used volume is the Fifth Edition by Roy Ritchie and Ron Stewart).

 

   To answer your question briefly...there is no short answer, no one place to get it all...not even the internet.  Unfortunately throughout time we have let fact and fiction mingle, breed and produce many of the stories and even legends that we are all so familiar with (its the proverbial "grapevine" that we as humans use so often). 

 

   You should read four to six articles pertaining to the history of any given pattern, from those article you can generally get a pretty good idea of common fact vs. fictional parts...again though even that method has flaws.  For example the Bowie pattern has a rich, wild and adventurous history...unfortunately though most of it that we know and embrace is not based on historic fact but most typically from what we saw in the movie "The Iron Mistress" with Alan Ladd (a classic movie btw).  When the legend of the Bowie knife began it started with a knife fight on a Mississippi river sand bar.  Newspapers reported that Jim Bowie had gotten into a knife fight with a gentleman (I forget his name), and killed him with "A large butcher knife"  from that small beginning, grew the stories we now know.

 

   Many, many (ok almost all) things relating to the history of patterns can be summed up by saying that the invented pattern filled a specific need.  Knives are tools, not unlike todays flat head screwdriver or a hammer.  Certain characteristics of a blade make it better suited for a specific cutting task.  For example the big rounded tip of a skinning knife vs. a coping blade or even a sheepsfoot blade.  Yes the sheepsfoot or coping blade would still skin a deer, rabbit or anything else you were aiming to skin, but the long sweeping curve, that particular arc of the blade on a "skinner" makes it a far better and more efficient blade choice.  As for handle/overall shape think about comfort while preforming the task, is it curved or straight?  Ever try to stab an object with a straight handled knife vs. a curved handle knife? 

   As you can see this journey is just beginning.  The answers are out there Jack, just have to take them 1 pattern at a time and do as much research as you can to sort truth from fiction.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on July 16, 2013 at 12:36

Well here is some more reading... Jack, kind of along the lines you mentioned: http://www.iknifecollector.com/profiles/blogs/cattle-knife-stock-knife

Jack Haskins, Jr. said:

I was afraid I'd  get an answer like this.  You were supposed to say "Company A made a medium stockman.  It was so successful that people asked for a little one and a big one.  Then other companies copied it as a result of it's versatile  usability.  Same story for other models.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by National Knife Museum on July 16, 2013 at 13:10

   Jack,

   Wish it were that simple...to a point it is.  Of course popular demand gave us varied sizes of each pattern but it had to start with a base model...it is the story of that base model you must search out. 

 

    That is a great link Steve (I use Levines books alot for reference), thanks for sharing. :-)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on July 16, 2013 at 13:45

TY NKM! Here is another very short discussion on the origins of just a couple that I thought were interesting. Had to dig back into the archives for this one! : http://www.iknifecollector.com/group/earlyamericancutleryhistory/fo...

• ▶ Reply

FeaturedPermalink Reply by Craig Henry on July 16, 2013 at 16:01

I think the person that has done the best to make SOME sense of the history of knife patterns is Barnard Levine. I'd be lost without his book. He has done some great research over the years.

Here's a link to his site - http://www.knife-expert.com/

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Chuck Parham on July 17, 2013 at 5:06

Jack, don't be sorry for opening this can of worms. It's fascinating!! However I'd suggest starting with your favorite pattern. That makes it more fun and interesting. It also teaches you how to do research. You find a little nugget of info that spikes your curiosity and you chase down that rabbit trail. Then you chase another and another. Before long you have your history finished to the extent you're looking for. Then you choose another pattern and so on. Once you get the patterns done you'll want to do blade configurations, blade variations, handle styles and materials and on and on and on. Research is fascinating so don't be afraid of it. Embrace it! You'll build your own library of facts so you can always go back and find info and answer questions. Good luck!!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on July 17, 2013 at 5:15

I agree, this can be an amazing discussion.  I love to hear about this kind of history

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on July 17, 2013 at 18:55

Well I can tell you where the Stockman originated. It began as a the cattle knife and its origins go back to the cattle boom in the United States shortly after the Civil War.  Cattlemen need a reliable folding knife that they could use for cattle work.

George Wostenholm (IXL)  of Sheffield, England came up with a large frame cigar pattern folder with a spear master and secondary sheepfoot blade at the top.  He also offered the same pattern in three blades adding  a pen, punch, or spay blade at the opposite end.   A third variation offered the Spear and sheepfoot on the top along with a punch and spay (sometimes a pen blade) on the top.  As the knives were made to order, there was some variety.  The most common however were two blade cattleknives and three blade version with a spay or punch added. So if you like Stockmans or cattle knives, thank George Wostenholm

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sue OldsWidow on July 21, 2013 at 21:33

The Patents for different knives show up from time to time, with info on the Inventor!! Surf the net...let us know what You find!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on April 26, 2017 at 20:28

 I havent been able to come up with too much history on Case’s version of the Texas Toothpick, but i did dig up a pretty interesting story on the origins of use for the Toothpick style blades. In it’s dim past, the toothpick was hardly a gentlemen’s knife. It’s origins are in the deep south back long ago. It was the favored knife of cheap tavern knife fighters, and it was a common trick to wedge a matchstick in the blade slot back by the rear bolster to aid in getting it open a bit faster. In the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, there was no tactical one hand folders, so the toothpick was the folding fighter of the day way down in the bayou country. It was a handy knife to have for other uses as well. One large pointy blade could be handy for a lot of things in an agricultural area.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on April 26, 2017 at 20:49

I really can't say 100% but the toothpick appears to be much older than the 1800s and could very well be of Spanish or Italian origin. It definitely resembles the old Navaja de Muelle out of Spain as well as the Italian Romano. In which case they have arrived with the Spaniards as early as the 1500-1600s.

Both knives had locking blades and were popular among fishermen but over time became a popular choice among bandits and cut throats.

Early large toothpicks found favor as a small folding skinning knife used for small game and fish -- so even the use of the toothpick was similar to the earlier Italian and Spanish knives.

And I'm sure we all know how the larger toothpicks have been used as fish knives for the last 100 years.

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page