Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Syd Carr on June 7, 2015 at 18:11

Wasn't there a detailed discussion somewhere on IKC about the history of the Bowie, (maybe earlier in this thread?), which included names of the knife maker who Bowie commissioned to make it, and some of the "lore" associated with it? Maybe it was on a different forum, but I seem to remember it being here somewhere, it was a very thorough and concise discussion too if I remember. Apparently no one really knows exactly what the original actually looked like, it having disappeared back in the 19th century, and only written descriptions exist. Known examples of supposedly similar knives from the same era/maker(s) look nothing like the Hollywood version of a Bowie that we all are familiar with. I assume that's why Tobias included a basic description of what type of "Bowie" he was referring to when he started the thread.

Permalink Reply by Shlomo ben Maved on June 7, 2015 at 20:00

Yeah and every military knife is a Ka-Bar, all wood, copper slabbed folding hunters are Bucks and all folders are jack knives.

It is fine for the bloody uninformed masses and talking heads to bloody well spout such drivel but we have to be held accountable to a much, much, higher standard--we are the collectors of the knives and the storage facility for the truth.

Just because someone calls something wrong, firstly does not make it right (no matter how many times it is said (i. e. irregardless) nor does not it mean we have to follow suit. Actually, we should be the ones correcting them at every dam opportunity.
 
Tobias Gibson said:

Yep but today almost any big blade clip point knife is called a bowie (little "b")  No doubt Jim Bowie didn't invent the Bowie, but a his name has become synonymous with the legend and knife pattern style has been attached to his name

Permalink Reply by Shlomo ben Maved on June 7, 2015 at 20:31

There was a posting like that and a lot of stuff was covered but no one, repeat, no one knows what the knives that Bowie used at either historic events looked like except by very inaccurate descriptions but one thing you can take to the bank it was not a Sheffield pattern long clip point (with or without a brass backing) knife which did not come about until the 1840s well after both brothers were both dead; JB (1836); Rezin (January 1841).

As to the copper backing, it was used on knives and swords dating back to the crusades and I believe even earlier.  See falchion and seax.
 
Syd Carr said:

Wasn't there a detailed discussion somewhere on IKC about the history of the Bowie, (maybe earlier in this thread?), which included names of the knife maker who Bowie commissioned to make it, and some of the "lore" associated with it? Maybe it was on a different forum, but I seem to remember it being here somewhere, it was a very thorough and concise discussion too if I remember. Apparently no one really knows exactly what the original actually looked like, it having disappeared back in the 19th century, and only written descriptions exist. Known examples of supposedly similar knives from the same era/maker(s) look nothing like the Hollywood version of a Bowie that we all are familiar with. I assume that's why Tobias included a basic description of what type of "Bowie" he was referring to when he started the thread.

Permalink Reply by Syd Carr on June 7, 2015 at 21:03

Thank you for answering my question, it WAS a subject discussed here on IKC. You also confirm what I alluded to earlier,  "no one really knows exactly what the original actually looked like". I might add to that IF there was even an original. There has been so much hype & lore attached to the "Bowie" knife, and James Bowie in the last 179 years who knows? I assume it's possible the entire story was a dime novel fabrication in the first place, and popular culture just hijacked the myth and the rest is "history".

Shlomo ben Maved said:

There was a posting like that and a lot of stuff was covered but no one, repeat, no one knows what the knives that Bowie used at either historic events looked like except by very inaccurate descriptions but one thing you can take to the bank it was not a Sheffield pattern long clip point (with or without a brass backing) knife which did not come about until the 1840s well after both brothers were both dead; JB (1836); Rezin (January 1841).

As to the copper backing, it was used on knives and swords dating back to the crusades and I believe even earlier.  See falchion and seax.
 
Syd Carr said:

Wasn't there a detailed discussion somewhere on IKC about the history of the Bowie, (maybe earlier in this thread?), which included names of the knife maker who Bowie commissioned to make it, and some of the "lore" associated with it? Maybe it was on a different forum, but I seem to remember it being here somewhere, it was a very thorough and concise discussion too if I remember. Apparently no one really knows exactly what the original actually looked like, it having disappeared back in the 19th century, and only written descriptions exist. Known examples of supposedly similar knives from the same era/maker(s) look nothing like the Hollywood version of a Bowie that we all are familiar with. I assume that's why Tobias included a basic description of what type of "Bowie" he was referring to when he started the thread.

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on June 7, 2015 at 21:27

Syd,

May have been this dissusion http://iknifecollector.com/page/jim-bowie  There was also pics that went with that discussion from last summers Bowie display  http://iknifecollector.com/photo/albums/the-new-bowie-chat
Syd Carr said:

Wasn't there a detailed discussion somewhere on IKC about the history of the Bowie, (maybe earlier in this thread?), which included names of the knife maker who Bowie commissioned to make it, and some of the "lore" associated with it? Maybe it was on a different forum, but I seem to remember it being here somewhere, it was a very thorough and concise discussion too if I remember. Apparently no one really knows exactly what the original actually looked like, it having disappeared back in the 19th century, and only written descriptions exist. Known examples of supposedly similar knives from the same era/maker(s) look nothing like the Hollywood version of a Bowie that we all are familiar with. I assume that's why Tobias included a basic description of what type of "Bowie" he was referring to when he started the thread.

Permalink Reply by Michael Squier on June 8, 2015 at 8:51

There has been lots of books etc written about Bowies and even those are argued over which one is correct. If you think about it the first knife Jim used to kill some guys at the sandbar couldnt have been a Bowie knife anyway because it hadnt been "invented" yet. It was just a knife his brother loaned or gave him depending on how you interpret the story. Rezin claims it was his old hunting knife he had for years already. So the "real" Bowie design would have been the knives made after the great fight and we dont seem to know exactly what that looked like. Even back in the 1800's they refered to any large fighting knife as a Bowie. But zi think at this point in time the Clip point style has become the most accepted as a Bowie to the majority. To us finicky collectors we may be a bit pickier but either way the first true Bowie is gone. 

Shefield may not have invented the true Bowie but they sure made alot of them, and so e really nice early ones too.

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on June 8, 2015 at 8:57

Shlomo, to me  a Bowie knife is a Western Model W-49 and knives reasonable close to it in size and appearance.  Is it  anything like the knife Jim Bowie used. I seriously, seriously, doubt it. 

If the knife is  smaller version of the Western then it often called a small bowie. If it a legitimate pattern is a matter of opinion, thus a description was mentioned at the beginning of this discussion so people would know what was meant by small bowie in this discussion.    But please understand, I pretty much agree with you.  I didn't mean to ruffle feathers with the little souvenir knife from India.  I've always just called it a single edge dagger.

That said, several interesting knives have been shown in this discussion, many of which I would never think of as a small bowie.   For starters, to me if the knife doesn't have a full guard  but has a half-guard then I normally call it a Hunter.  If it has no guard I normally call it a Skinner.  If it has a full cross guard, I will normally call it a fighting knife.   If it has a double edge  spear point blade, I call it a Arkansas or Tennessee toothpick, if it has a single edge blade clip or skinner, I normally call it a Bowie. Of course if the maker labels the knife a certain way, then I go with the whatever the maker call it.

I'm not an expert, I don't pretend to be. but I also want to easily describe knives in as few words as possible. Unfortunately, like it or not, In America, the word Bowie conjures up an image of a large blade fixed blade and most often that image looks very much like the W-49.

Again I reiterate, the knife  most people think of as a Bowie probably looks nothing like the knife Jim Bowie actually carried, other than it was a big knife.  From the reading you shared earlier it actually sounded like it wasn't  the style of the knife that set the knife apart but the heat treating on the blade.  Either way, I'm reminded of the end The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

Ransom Stoddard: You're not going to use the story, Mr. Scott?

Maxwell Scott: No, sir. This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

Permalink Reply by Michael Squier on June 8, 2015 at 9:39

Tobias, thats a great quote, alot of truth in that fictitious statment from Hollywood. lol.

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on June 8, 2015 at 14:20

The quote is fantastic and explains a good deal about what was "learned" from the west.  If civilization was gone and all the books disappeared but one...I prefer it not be a dime store novel of the west LOL

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on June 8, 2015 at 15:43

I know were totally off topic now and I know it is my fault but the world just might be a better place if it were Louis Lamour Western.

The knife in the pic below is the one carried by Rafe (Tom Selleck) in the movie version of Louis Lamour's Crossfire Trail.  A fairly simple affair; something you would expect to see on a cowboy.  I believe the rifle and two revolvers are also from the same movie but I will need to watch it again to be sure.

The revolver on the left is a Smith & Wesson Schofield Model 3   The revolver on the right is a Colt 1872 Open Top Revolver.44 Caliber  that he stole from a ship's captain at the start of the movie. The rifle is a Winchester Model 1876 full-stocked carbine which featured prominently in the film.

I wish I had more info on the knife.   I think in Last Stand at Sabre River, Paul Cable (Selleck's character) carries a two blade Barlow.

Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on June 9, 2015 at 21:07

Tobias,

Have you ever checked out this site??  http://www.westernleatherholster.com/western-movie-holsters/

In some cases they tell about the knives but not for this one

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on June 10, 2015 at 7:46

I sure have.  It's a pretty cool site, Jan!

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