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Comment by Chris Stookey on June 9, 2011 at 0:02

Hey there Halicon...

 

Interesting points. I just used my everyday experience with a 1-to-10 rough-scoring system as an easy point-of-reference (US/North Americans are familiar with this reference). As for the steels that I listed, they are ones fairly common to knives readily available in the US (yes,"flawed" western thinking; if we were all Swedes, the world would be so much more...Viking-like?). I probably should have indicated that my experience with ZDP-189 is exclusively on folding knives. As I think you know, some steels are much better suited to fixed blades than folding knives (I like A2 quite a bit).

 

As for BS#1, I've never experienced that one. I'm not sure how available it is in this part of the world. You've certainly made me curious about it. As of late, I've developed an affinity for CPM S90V and CPM4. The CPM4 isn't very rust resistant, but it's other qualities are quite good. I know that this is about ZDP-189, but what is your experience with Fallkniven's 3g?

Comment by Halicon on June 6, 2011 at 6:49

Chris, I have to ask on what type of competition are you considering your "scoring"?

 

Have you tried a knife of the kind I'm mentioning?

 

As with most westerners your scoring scale is flawed from the start since you're including the entire steel industry except the ones forged by hand and the steels they use (White Steel, Blue Steel, Yellow Steel, Tougou series, Uddeholm K120, Bohler 990k and so on).

 

zdp-189 compared against BS#1 which is the steel I would pit it against falls short on sharpenability, ability to take as fine of an edge as possible, performance, the size and strength of the bond of carbon and iron. Almost all the things I personally value in a good blade.

 

It is a peculiar steel however since it can take a rather high hardness, granting it one unique feature compared to it's biggest rivals (D2, S90V and the like). It is hard to work, but the work pays off.

The better you sharpen the steel the more it will give you and the longer the edge will last due to finer serrations on the edge - unlike many softer steels that you often need to touch up.

 

zdp-189 has a nasty tendency if not properly sharpened to chip awfully easy (common with very hard steels and big serrations or "teeth).

And with all steels like this they are much harder both regarding skill and time to sharpen compared to properly forged steels because the "cold" tempering makes the stone grab the steel more efficiently and thus cut faster.

In Memoriam Comment by D ale on June 5, 2011 at 19:19

Kudo’s to Chris !!!

 A real world take on usability & affordability.

Kudo’s to Chris !!!

In Memoriam Comment by Robert Burris on June 5, 2011 at 18:56

Chris, thanks so much for your hands on report  about ZDP-189 steel. The more people know about the knives out there the better they can choose which one suits their needs the best.

Comment by Chris Stookey on June 5, 2011 at 14:09

Hey Robert!

 

Rather than get into the molecular differences between steels...or the various characteristics related to forging and temper, I'll just stick to my user experience.

 

I have several knives with ZDP-189; all but a couple are Spyderco's...the rest are Kershaw's. Candidly, the ZDP-189 steel's performance is the about the same on both brands. I'll preface what I'm about to say with this; the Kershaw blades are recurve-style (Blur model) while the Spyderco blades are all drop-points. Candidly, ZDP-189's general characteristics remind me quite a bit of D2; both are very hard steels. To give you a little more specific idea of what I've found:

 

* Edge Holding Ability: Outstanding!  On a 1 to 10 scale (with 10 being the best score), I'd give it a 10; it's as good as anything I've used.

 

* Sharpenability: Is this a word? Not in anything but a "knife dictionary"! As I've indicated above, ZDP-189 is one "hard steel". It's pretty easy to "touch up" and a real challenge to totally sharpen from a dull state. On a 1-to-10 scale, I'd give this steel a 3. My advice to anyone using a knife with this steel is "Touch it up regularly and do NOT let it get totally dull."

 

* Scratch Resistance: Quite good. On a 1-to 10 scale (10 being the best score possible), I'd give it a 10. It's hardness is very beneficial in this regard. Cutting abrasive material (such as cardboard) seems to result in less aesthetic damage to the blade. Again, though, if you do scratch it up, polishing the scratches out is a HUGE chore that takes an unbelievable amount of time.

 

* Rust-resistance: While I consider ZDP-189 to be one of the very hardest knife steels that I've used, it isn't as rust-resistant as many other steels. This is just what I've found. Obviously, compared to 1095, 5160 and any high-carbon steel, the ZDP-189 resists rust and corrosion MUCH better. Compared to Aus8a...it's about the same. Compared to CPM S-30V, it's not that good. On a 1-to-10, I'd give it a 5.

 

* Slicing/Cutting Performance: Given that it's edge-holding abilities are quite good...so too are it's slicing/cutting abilities. I've remarked that this steel is similar to D-2 and while I haven't had any issues with D2 being overly brittle, I'd say that ZDP-189 performs just a touch better because it's cutting edge is a little less likely to "roll the burr". This also translates into ZDP-189 being able to cut a little "better" a little longer. On a 1-to-10 scale, I'd give this steel a 9.5. It is "exceptional" in this regard.

 

* Practicality: While ZDP-189 is a pretty "available" steel, the characteristics that work well for it...also work against it. In simple terms, this steel is NOT practical. Most knife users are not going to "touch up" the sharpness on their blade with any regularity. Most users will...invariably...use their knife for a prying task. This means that the blade will get marred up. Sharpening, polishing...MAINTAINING... none of these things are easy to do with ZDP-189. On a 1-to-10 scale, I give this steel a lowly 2. Why not a 1? Well...super soft steels are even less practical than super hard steels (you have to do a lot of maintenance on them just to get half-decent performance).

 

* Affordability: What?! Why is this in here?! Well...in this day and age, a number of ZDP-189's competitors (D2, CPM 154, CPM S30V, CPM S-90V, CPM M-4 and others) have price tags that are a bit more "reachable".  The somewhat exotic steels like CPM S90V and CPM M4 are still priced well beyond where ZDP-189 typically lands...but each and every day CPM S30V becomes more common and more affordable. Candidly, it is probably now the "standard" by which most other steels are judges. For me, CPM S30V performs every bit as well as ZDP-189 and is actually "better" in some of the categories listed above.  So...how affordable is this steel. On a 1-to-10, I give it a 6. With mass production knives from Spyderco and Kershaw, getting a ZDP-189 blade at right around $100 US isn't all that hard to do.

 

* Stookey's Take: I like ZDP-189. Then again, I like most Japanese steels (VG-10, Aus8a, Acuto+). It performs well, holds an edge exceptionally well and is pretty durable overall. That said, is it wildly better than very available steels such as 154CM, D2, CPM S30V, and VG-10? For most tasks that any of us will encounter with any regularity? Not really. So why do we need it? For the same reason that we need more than one type of steel at all; to provide consumers with competitive options. Competitive options serve to make pricing more reachable. They also drive innovation and technological advancement. ZDP-189 is an asset in both regards.

Comment by Halicon on June 4, 2011 at 7:08

James, it isn't cheap. I don't have any numbers at the moment but last time I saw it I remember that I was stunned. I also have to sincerely thank you for not jumping me for talking about the recent discoveries in the steel business. If you could secure some CPM-S125V then you would be set for a long time because that steel takes tiii-iiiiii-iiime to work lol.

There doesn't really exist any super steel for me but only super smiths if you get my view :)

 

Robert, what I recommend is quite complicated and not at all steel vs steel like 1095 vs 5160.

The recommendations I give are on smiths that first of all have a very good ore stock, but just as important is the forging. It is such a great feat to craft a Kuro-ba (black back) WS#1 steel and temper it at 180 degrees that it's hard for me to explain just how amazing it is.

The smith actually has to know how much the forging and tempering warps the steel so he has to adjust the hollow to be perfect after warping. After tempering the hollow is finished - he can't touch it at all because it would harm the black protective back (viva stainless super-pure carbon steels!).

 

WS#1 is very in carbon, BS#1 has some alloys added in to it. K120 is purer in iron than WS#1 but lower in carbon which lowers it's performance but makes it perform closer to Tamahagane (Jewel steel).

Smiths travel for their whole lives to find that "special" lot of steel, many smiths deny it but there does exist differences in every steel lot and some tend to perform better so that is what the smiths are hunting like bloodhounds.

 

In the end though, it all comes down to the forging and tempering. You can sit on the best steel in the world and turn it into a mere fraction of what it could be. I have sharpened more tools from different smiths than I can remember now and -every- steel was different. I've seen WS#1 break apart like glass, bend like a spoon and also seen it cut through tempered steel.

 

But if we take smiths that truly have achieved mastership in mind then those steels become golden, if you re-trace my posts back the to discussion in the 440C vs 1095 thread this is covered there technically when you forge the steels. There are as many combinations for the crystallized molecular construction in steel as there are people on earth - we do know however the critical and most accurate temperatures to forge the steels in.

 

The only question is if the smith can handle it, can he work the steel to a steady state of less than 1 degree celsius difference, can he go from the forge to plunge it in the water in 0,6 seconds in order to bring out as refined of a crystallization in the steel as possible?

 

I know only a handful of smiths capable of this feat, all of whom are about to retire.

In Memoriam Comment by Robert Burris on June 3, 2011 at 10:44

Thanks Hal, so I take it you recomend WS1 over ZDP-189. Thanks Dale, you are a great help too.

Comment by Halicon on June 3, 2011 at 8:58

ZDP-189, also called as Cowry-X but Cowry-X is forged differently. Takes up to HRC 66 with the proper tempering (dale, I would say 67 is streching it, I've never seen one state that and be true to his words). Powder steel.

Takes a good edge, holds it decently but not at all remotely close to the performance of a traditionally forged WS1/2 or BS1/2.

 

This steel is well over 3-4 years old now and is not at all any revolution. It's a decent steel on par with the other powder steels, has some problem with edge durability due to large molecules but depends on forging. Personally I like Cowry-X over zdp-189 since the tempering tends to be of Japanese standard and much more careful and deliberate.

 

James, this is absolutely not a "super steel" nor are CPM's SXX varieties. The only CPM steel I would call really good is S125V but they cancelled the production because it wore their tools too much.

Comment by stephen tungate on June 2, 2011 at 19:27

that is good information thanks dale and robert...

In Memoriam Comment by D ale on June 2, 2011 at 19:03

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