Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on January 8, 2015 at 8:37

Hopefully you're taking down those coyotes legally and with the same clean shot you reserve for deers.  As for the youtube viseo, what can I say, Coyotes have to eat and deer are on the menu.  Its called nature.  I really don't have a problem with coyotes doing what they were made to do. Just my opinion.  No offense intended

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on January 8, 2015 at 9:08

Well it is a fact of life for sure. We raise Kiko Goats and Great Pyrenees Plus we are so deep in the woods with virtually no civilization around us we always deal with coyotes. We train the dogs to bark them off but if they somehow get in the dogs have to deal with them.  Sometimes we can see them first in the daytime or early evening and we do shoot them inside of our fencing. 

Listen coyote exist for a reason as do bobcats and mountain lions. My job here is to keep them away from the livestock using good fencing practices, good dogs and keeping an eye on problems that I can address with a firearm.

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on January 8, 2015 at 11:02

Not arguing at all.  I understand human encroachment on territories and this causes coyotes to end up eating suburban housewive's toy poodles and worse still attacking small children.  I also understand when they attack livesotck.  It is an easy meal for the coyote in both cases.  I also know they have become more than just an  oddity and a nuisance for both suburbia and farmers and even established hunting areas.

If you NEED to kill them then by all means kill them.  But do it legally and with a good clean shot. And if it all possible, find a use for the by-product of your shoot.  No doubt coyote populations are exploding in areas where they used not to be. One reason for this is humans and their garbage and the fact that we have turned into a society where hunting is seen as a cruel and unusual sport. 

We have deer wandering around within a 1/4 mile of my house and will often go through the allies exploring garbage cans.  You can't hunt them.  People put out salt licks and food for them because they don't want theme to starve and then they bitch about deer eating the flowers or stripping the bark off the apple tree in their backyard.  Next thing you know, they are complaining about the red foxes and the coyotes that are running off with their  weener-dog.  Here's a clue.  Stop feeding the deer and allow a selected culling of the herd when it gets too big!  And allow us to protect property by humanely shooting coyotes and deer that have wandered where they shouldn't be.  Or if possible humanely trap and relocate the now nuisance animals and predators to an area where it could do some good.

Now I have no problem with shooting a coyote or any predator  IF there is good reason to do so. But I also have no problem with coyotes competing with humans when it comes to hunting and stalking deer.  I'm sure deer do more property damage and injure more humans every year than coyotes ever will.  Thus I probably wouldn't shoot every coyote I come across.  But if they were if they were eating my livestock or were running amok in my hunting area then things would change quickly real fast.

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on January 8, 2015 at 12:03

Well that is how I feel. I don't hunt them for sport, only to protect my livestock and my dogs.  One of the problems not often talked about is the fact they run in packs and thats when they do the most damage. I guess you might say they are emboldened  in a group.

To be honest I dont't understand suburbia or the cities anymore. Humans and sadly the shopping that follows them have taken over what otherwise would be good hunting ground. Then the inhabitants complain about deer population or excess racoons or whatever, in the garbage or in the backyard grazing.

Kids thang eggs come from Wal Mart and meat in a package from the grocery store. The majority of our population has forgotten what got us to where we are now. I can't change that perception in my lifetime.

And don't get me started on rules and regulations and goverment stupidity. I might start a rant I can't stop!

FeaturedPermalink Reply by Charles Sample on January 8, 2015 at 13:34

I'm not arguing either Tobias but coyotes in Alabama are not natural.  They are an invasive species.  The coyote's natural range is the western mountains and plains.  They were introduced into Alabama in the 1920's and 30"s by fox hunters.  (May the bird of paradise fly up their nose!)   With no natural predators their numbers and range is ever increasing.  They are the carp of land.  They have no natural predators in Alabama.

They also devastate native species.  Where I hunt I almost never see a rabbit.  There are a few but very few.  And quail are nonexistent.  The squirrel population is still very good because coyotes can't climb trees.  The land owner where I hunt has had coyotes kill his new born calves.

One thing we have where I hunt is solid black coyotes.  They are significantly larger than the normal brownish coyotes.  I suspect they are a cross between a black lab and a coyote.  Interbreeding between dogs and coyotes is fairly common.  They are called coydogs and are frequently larger than pure coyotes.

An interesting thing happened to me while deer hunting during the 2013-2014 deer season.  When I deer hunt in the morning I always get to my stand well before daylight.  This particular morning I walked to my stand and got into my shooting house.  My backside had no more than touched the seat when a coyote howled right outside the stand.  It was so loud it had to be very close!  I nearly jumped out of my skin it was so unexpected.  That coyote had to have not only heard and smelled me coming, but also seen the flashlight I was carrying to find my way in the dark.  I had to wonder, was it stalking me.  It certainly wasn't afraid of me.

So I will continue to shoot every coyote I see.

FeaturedPermalink Reply by Charles Sample on January 8, 2015 at 13:49

Yes, they are taken legally.  There is no closed season on coyotes in Alabama and no limit.  (They want you to kill as many as possible!)  As for a clean kill, I have never had a coyote take another step when hit with a 150 grain Remington Core-Lokt out of my .30-06.  That may be overkill but I hit what I shoot at with my 06 and it reduces the need for precise shot placement somewhat.

Oh, and no offense taken.  I enjoy this type of discussion.

Tobias Gibson said:

Hopefully you're taking down those coyotes legally and with the same clean shot you reserve for deers.  As for the youtube viseo, what can I say, Coyotes have to eat and deer are on the menu.  Its called nature.  I really don't have a problem with coyotes doing what they were made to do. Just my opinion.  No offense intended

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on January 8, 2015 at 14:19

I understand your point of view but just to clarify

1) the Coyote's range has been expanding in just about every direction for the last 100 years or so.  The primary reason is believed to be human encroachment in new areas which have forced out more dominant predators, especially cougars and wolves. Wolves and cougars tend to keep the coyote population in check.  In the case of Alabama it would seem that early fox hunters are also partly to blame as they over hunted one breed and brought it an invasive breed. Not really the coyote's fault but it has created a problem for you.

2) East coast coyotes tend to be larger than coyotes found west of the Mississippi River.  The principle reason is believed to  be caused from generational cross breeding with wolves.  These coyote/wolf cross breeds fall in size  between that of a wolf and coyote, and are about 20% larger than the western coyotes.  It is thought as the wolf territory was shrunk by human habitation, coyotes moved in and the few remaining wolves had no other wolves in their range so had their way with coyotes.    When they were first first crossed they were called coywolves.  (and when a copyote breeds with a wolf the first generation is still called a coywolf)

  But as the new larger coywolfs began breeding among themselves they just became a subspecies of coyotes known as Eastern Coyotes. These have a pelt similar to the Western Coyote.

3) Most coyote/dog cross-breeds die young due to poor parenting.  They also tend to be smaller an weaker than the regular coyotes.  Coyotes and dogs are normally not on the same mating cycle and coyotes are skittish around domestic dogs.

4) that said, if it is a black coyote, there had to be some cross breeding with domesticated dogs sometime in its past because the gene that produces the black pelt is a mutation that occurs within domestic dogs and not coyote.

5) Finally coyotes were found throughout the eastern US about a thousand years ago but became extinct east of the Mississippi.  Genomic mapping of Red Wolf and the Eastern wolf conclusively show that they were a product of cross breeding between gray wolves and the the original coyotes found east of the Mississippi.

Man I love IKC.  Thanks for sharing your insight on the Coyote troubles in Alabama, Charles.

FeaturedPermalink Reply by Charles Sample on January 8, 2015 at 14:20

I just checked the ballistic charts.  The way I have my 06 sighted, I am never more than 2.2 inches off point of aim anywhere up to 200 yards.

Permalink Reply by Tobias Gibson on January 8, 2015 at 14:23

Very nice.  Rahter it be "overkilled" than "underkilled."  And you are 100% correct, Coyotes are expected the survive the zombie holocaust with no problem!   You'll run out of ammunition before you run out of coyotes!

Charles Sample said:

I just checked the ballistic charts.  The way I have my 06 sighted, I am never more than 2.2 inches off point of aim anywhere up to 200 yards.

FeaturedPermalink Reply by Charles Sample on January 8, 2015 at 14:37

Steve, coyotes are not native to Missouri either.  They are an invasive species there also.

Steve Hanner said:

Well it is a fact of life for sure. We raise Kiko Goats and Great Pyrenees Plus we are so deep in the woods with virtually no civilization around us we always deal with coyotes. We train the dogs to bark them off but if they somehow get in the dogs have to deal with them.  Sometimes we can see them first in the daytime or early evening and we do shoot them inside of our fencing. 

Listen coyote exist for a reason as do bobcats and mountain lions. My job here is to keep them away from the livestock using good fencing practices, good dogs and keeping an eye on problems that I can address with a firearm.

FeaturedPermalink Reply by Charles Sample on January 8, 2015 at 14:42

You are right there Tobias.  I will definitely run out of ammo before coyotes.  

When I was growing up in Missouri, they had a bounty on coyotes.  If I remember right it was $25 per coyote killed.  But Missouri dropped the bounty.  Not because coyotes were endangered but because they were paying out all that money for coyote bounty and the coyote population was still growing and spreading!

Tobias Gibson said:

Very nice.  Rahter it be "overkilled" than "underkilled."  And you are 100% correct, Coyotes are expected the survive the zombie holocaust with no problem!   You'll run out of ammunition before you run out of coyotes!

Charles Sample said:

I just checked the ballistic charts.  The way I have my 06 sighted, I am never more than 2.2 inches off point of aim anywhere up to 200 yards.

FeaturedPermalink Reply by Charles Sample on January 8, 2015 at 15:05

Tobias, this discussion illustrates another one of the many things I like about this forum.  We discuss and learn about many other things than knives.  For instance I didn't know that a thousand years ago coyotes existed east of the Mississippi.

Here are some of the pictures of black coyotes that I have gotten.

Black coyote chasing a deer.

Here are two coyotes, one black and one brown.  Notice the black one is bigger than the brown one.

I have many other pictures of both black and brown coyotes.

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