Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on December 17, 2013 at 18:06

OK Manx lets see what you get. I am interested as well in any head to head comparisons so that folks can make decisions on what works best for them.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 17, 2013 at 22:13

Here goes. First, check out "chefknivestogo.com" if you haven't already.  They have a forum with a seperate forum for each system.  So whichever you get you can get lots of answers to your questions there.  Very experienced sharpeners who are eager to help others of all skill levels.  Both systems are also sold there as well as about any accessory for each.  I have one forum friend that has both.  He has used both a lot and I have not been able to narrow him down to which is the "best".  Both are GREAT and it's just a matter of getting to know the one you buy.  So rest assured your choice is not which is "better".  I've been using the EP for almost 4 years and I'll tell you what I think about it.  Buy it.  Ok, that's it. :)  Just kidding of course but seriously, I mean it. Buy one.  I'me never seen a WE other than in videos.  But I will tell you about the EP.  One thing about the EP is you can get many different types of stones for it later.  Since you are just getting into sharpening this is not really a concern.  Your first concern is to learn about sharpening, the EP and master it as your tool.  The EP is like many great tools.  It produces very good results but after a little experience and practice it can produce excellent results that you can be proud of when charging  $ or shen sharpening your friend's knives.  The stones that come with the EP are very good stones and will do a very good job.  But there are sharpening stones that will do a much "better " job.  Most of these are pretty expensive though.  I have a set of Shapton glass stonesand they are superb.  Using different grits you can put a toothy edge on a knife which is great for tomatoes.  For another knife you can put a  very smooth polished edge.  I only mention the different stones now because the EP gives you a much larger selection of stones than the WE does.  Also, for the WE the stones come in pairs so of course they are more expensive to replace.  BUT, replacing stones is not needed very often and since the WE needs two stones of each grit (one for each side of the edge) they are actually worn out twice as slowly.  This is an important issue when making a decision on which to buy.  I do like being able to buy a much wider variety of stones for my EP.  I have some stones I bought from "congresstools.com".  THey are moldmasters and cost an average of $5 each.  THey do a very good job.  The only problem is the stones don't come mounted on the aluminum blank needed to use them in the EP.  So I bought aluminum blanks from Lowes. 1"x1/8"x36" (or 48").  I cut them and glue the stones to them myself.  It's easy and lots of people cut their own blanks.  This is just an option with the EP.  Or you can just buy EP stones from Ben  Dale (EP inventor) at "edgeproinc.com" or on the CKTG  site.  Summary:  Lots of options for stones with the EP.  There are lots of things I can talk about but you don't need most of that right now.  I will tell you about the edges you can get using the EP.  Let's talk about sharpness levels.  When you can shave your arm hair with 2 or 3 strokes over the same spot the knife is usably sharp.  If you can't shave arm hair at all the knife is dull.  It will open a box but so will your house key.  So 3 passes to shave arm is level 1.  Level 2 is when the hairs pop off your arm and the spot is BALD after one pass.  This level of sharp is pretty easy to achieve with the EP.  There is sharper but we'll discuss that later.  I have no idea how long it will take you to get to level 2.  This will depend on how much practice you do.  I suggest you go to the DOllar  Store and buy a few CHEAP knives to practice on.  If you don't do this and do a lot of practicing you will "practice" your knives into ice picks.  Sounds crazy but it's very easy to go through A LOT of blade steel learning to sharpen.  I don't know what knives you have but there is a big difference in different blades made of different type steel.  DOn't worry about this now, just be aware of it. It will become a big deal later.  I'll try to start closing.  Maintaining a consistant, repeatable angle on the knife edgewhen sharpening is one of the most important issues and hardest to master when free hand sharpening on bench stones.  Remember Grandpa doing this? :)  The EP and the WE systems moth take care of 99% of the consistant angle issue.  With my EP I can put a FLAT, mirror finish polish on an edge bevel.  I can see the reflection of the celiling fan above me in the bevel.  I can also take the knife outside and see a perfect reflection of the branches and leaves of trees 20 feet above my head.  Not an exageration.  A bevel this FLAT is impossible for the most experienced knife sharpeners using the free hand method.  This level of accuracy is also benificial when concentrating on the sharpness of the edge instead of the finish which is mostly for appearance.  With the EP you can sharpen a knife so it is sharp enough to whittle a single strand of hair.  That means slicing part way throughone strand of hair and whittling a curly sliver off of it without cutting  all the way through the hair.  This is also very doable after becoming very good at free hand sharpening also.  In fact you will need to be able to get knives this sharp before you will be competative when charging  for sharpening knives.  Not to worry.  It takes practice but it's not rocket science. :)  I'd say if equal effort wereapplied to get to  the hair whittling level of sharpness the EP would take about 1/4 of the time.  THis is because angle control, which is one of the hardest skills to master is taken care of for you by the EP (or WE if you choose that one).  You will see sharper edges much faster with the EP than you would if you were learning free hand.  So have fun.  Be patient.  Ask questions.  Get sharper knives. :)  You may want to buy your own box of bandaids to keep  right there where you sharpen.  That's a joke.  But most commedians know the best jokes come from real life. :)  Seriously, keep bandaids handy.  :)  Ask me anything you want.  I'll answer best I can.  Definately check out the CKTG  forum.  That site has two main focuses.  Excellent quality kitchen cutlery and about the best selection of knife sharpening products of any site I've seen.  The prices shocked the crap out of me for their stuff at first but after shopping around I found their prices were competative.  LIke anything else it boils down to what you want and what you are willing to spend.  And you don't need the very best stones to get GREAT results.  You can trust the quality buying from "edgeproinc.com" and "cheffknivestogo.com".  I don't think I've bought any EP stuff elsewhere.  Except for the moldmaster stones on "congresstools.com".  On a side note, that site has a remarkable selection of polishing stones.  Good luck with this.  You can make it as simple or as complicated as you want.  Good luck, have fun.

Jack

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on December 18, 2013 at 14:32

Well, a lot of good thoughts there Jack and Thank You. Not sure which way Manx will go just yet but pretty sure he is doing something because its Christmas. Interesting a bit of a nod to Edge Pro. I have certainly watch videos, and it looks doable. I have also seen Wicked Edge, they take a different approach and although they make it look easy(sure they would) but I wonder how difficult it is to get that exact angle right.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 17:01

Manx, what was your reason for not learning to sharpen free hand on bench stones?  Just curious.

Jack

In MemoriamPermalink Reply by John McCain on December 18, 2013 at 18:21

Manx, I copied this from a bladeforums discussion- I am by no means a knife sharpening pro,but I do know this- if you intennd to sharpen chefs cutlery- A] the angle of the grind is usually 15 degrees B} many chefs knives have flexible blades C} Most chefs are very protective about their cutlery, even in their own kitchens.-- Anyway here is the article-

I have owned the EP apex, EP Pro, and now have the WEPS. I will start off letting you know that by far my favorite system was the EP Pro. I hope to give you positives and negatives of both systems, that I didn't see when I looked after the fact. (I know you are probably considering just the apex or the WE, but I will also put some info in here about the Pro too so you can keep it in the back of your mind... hope i'm not getting off track).

EP Apex: This is an excellent system for the money ($150 +/-) and it carries a lifetime transferable warranty. I always got A+ service from Ben anytime I had a question and they are spot on when it comes to shipping stuff to you, even though they are based out of oregon. I never had to make good on any part whatsoever of the warranty on the Apex or the Pro. I won't re-post this in the pro section, just give you a couple of benefits over the apex.

Edge Pro Apex

Benefits:
- You are correct in that longer flexible blades are not an issue. I have even done a sword on mine, lol, although I wouldn't recommend doing it very often, its a pain!
- You can get very precise angles, arguably even more precise than the WE when you use both a drill stop collar and an angle cube.
- I could re-hone a straight razor no problem on the Apex (or Pro) no problem
- I believe the angle (Ben Dale - owner can answer this to be sure) on the EP goes down to around 8-9 degrees per side. But like I said, don't quote me on this.
- Although the stock wet stones do wear a lot quicker, I actually liked the 120 stock stone on the EP over the 50 grit diamond stone on the WE for re-profiling something. For some reason, it seems to work quicker.

Cons:
- Stones wear and you have to flatten them pretty often. The courser stones wear a lot faster than the finer grit ones because you use them a lot more heavily to re-profile blades when they are really dull or damaged. Heavy use on a 120 you will have to flatten around every 4-5 knives. Your 1000 grit would be fine every 20-30 probably.
- The 2 small suction cups that hold the apex to the table tend to slide around after you have been using the water on the wet-stones for a while... its kinda a pain because you have to re-adjust every so often.
- When changing stones out its slightly more involved (although not much) than the WE or the Pro (you have to unscrew the knob vs. it being spring loaded on the Pro).
- Can't do scissors/chisels, etc.
- You are also correct in that it is easier to scratch the side of your blade while sharpening... this is due to the slurry from the stone, water, and steel that will get on your blade as you slide it along to sharpen it on the blade table. Ben recommends using a piece of masking tape on the blade, which partially works, but after a short while, it does get water underneath it and starts coming up. It does work pretty well though. I sharpened a bunch of collector knives on it and was real careful and never had any issues.
- Neither the pro or this one can do ceramic knives... trust me, I've tried. I purchased the two diamond stones the EP sells for ceramic knives along with the diamond tape. They don't put near high enough of a polish on the edge to get it to shave hair.


Alright, on to the WEPS - I love the concept of the WEPS. It is a BEAUTIFUL concept and I like the idea of locking your blade in a vise and sharpening both sides at the same time. Cost is comparible to the apex (maybe just slightly more). This also comes with a lifetime warranty. From what I hear Clay is very supportive any time you need something and even on these forums from time to time... I haven't had to ask him any questions yet. I have had to cash in on the warranty once already, and am about to a second time. The vise (which is made out of aluminum) bent on me... twice. To their credit they sent me another one in the mail right away and I didn't have to pay a dime (that was the second one I bent, haven't called them yet - it didn't bend as bad as the first one). Also, when I was sharpening my first knife one of the retaining pins that holds the guide rod that the stones slide over fell out...kinda surprised me.

Benefits:
- It is theoretically quicker, although I haven't gotten good enough yet on it to be quicker than I was on my EP. I believe this because it is much quicker to change stones out, you don't have to change the knife from hand to hand and rotate blade sides, etc. I believe you can get a lot more strokes per side in a shorter amount of time once you get good.
- It is a lot cleaner than the EP since it doesn't use any water... I will say that it still makes a mess sort of though, when you are sharpening a really dull knife with the 50 or 80 grit stone... it will get diamond dust all over whatever table you are using.
- Easier to be consistent since the blade is locked in a vise.
- Don't have to flatten the stones if you get the diamond stones.
- Clay is coming out with a scissor/serrated attachment so you can sharpen scissors and serrated blades within the next month or two.
- You can do ceramic knives on this system if you get the diamond stones and sprays on the strops.
- You CAN do the long thin blades... to an extent. My WE came with an attachment that is basically a thin rod with a notch cut out of it that fits in the base of the WE and will support the tip of your knife so it won't flex. I have sharpened up a fillet knife nicely with this.

Cons:
- 50 and 80 grit stones don't cut very fast (I have tried light to heavy pressure... neither work very well, heavier was better though when trying to remove metal fast. They say not to be heavy handed with diamonds, but on the 50 grit stone on a blade, I put a little more pressure into it. Nothing crazy mind you, not enough to move the mounting table much).
- There seems to be a lot of play in the system... between the guide rod joints (that go on the degree bar at the base) and the the stone paddles (which are slightly too big for the guide rods). It seems to be a couple of degrees difference (2-3 degrees at my best estimation, but I could be wrong).
- The knobs that attach the guide rods to the degree bar tend to loosen up pretty often while sharpening... it is really annoying.
- There is a degree limitation, which is around 15 degrees. Like mentioned above, this can partially be gotten around, but only with certain types of blades. When you watch Clay's video on him sharpening a straight razor, you notice that he is not clamping the straight razor in the center of the blade like he does on most knives... he is clamping it at the part of the blade nearest the base, so that way the actual edge sticks out in front of the vise. He then rotates the guide rod bases forward to be able to get the guide rod arms in front of the vise to allow for a more narrow angle. What you have to watch out for is actually shaving off some of your vise as you sharpen when you are trying to get near the heel of your knife. So what I am trying to say, is that for most knives, you won't be able to get less than 15 degrees.
- I have not been able to do straight razors on this (and I have sharpened several on the EP and shave with one, so I know what I'm doing)... Clay and others (like above) say you can... but clay never shows how sharp it is at the end of the video. You remember in the point just above this one where I told you that you can rotate the guide rod base forward so that way you can lower the degrees? Well, the problem with this is that when you do this and hone your straight razor, the degree angle actually changes in mid stroke. ( I will try to take a vid or pics of what I am talking about - its hard to explain). It is not designed to be tilted forward like this and still be smooth. It is very hard to work with when it is forward. Theoretically you can put an EXCELLENT edge on a straight razor because of the amount of strokes you can do in a short amount of time per side, thus removing all of the previous scratch pattern with each successive grit. I did purchase all the way up through the .125 cubic boron nitride strops from WE.
- The plastic on the stone paddles actually sticks out so that I have had some issues (like on my para 2) getting all the way back to the heel (or almost the return) of the edge...
- Am I keeping my WE? Yeah, cuz I already have it and I like the idea better than the EP, even though I think the EP is much better built. So what have I done to fix some of these issues? 1. I got a local metal fabrication shop to make me an exact replica of the the vise out of hardened A2 tool steel. =D Haven't gotten it in yet, will try to post up some of my mods on this forum in the near future. 2. I have the same metal fabrication shop making me some attachments that will attach on the degree bar that will fix my straight razor problem (will have to show you a pic later to explain). 3. I used some .010" thick phosphorus bronze washers to re-inforce the joints on the guide rod arms. This tightened up the tolerances considerably. 4. I took some of the stone paddles to my belt sander and shaved the plastic sides down some so they don't get in the way. The metal fabrications I'm having done aren't cheap...

I'm sure that Wicked Edge would give me my money back if I wanted it... but I just decided to keep it and go with it. I like the idea better than the EP, if I can get it working properly.


On to the EP Pro - The quality and craftsmanship of this is phenominal. It is a couple hundred more than the Apex, but TOTALLY worth it in my opinion (if you are going to be sharpening a good bit of knives or just have the money =). I sharpened around 300 knives or so on mine before I thought the "grass was greener on the other side" and converted over to the WE =) I sold my Pro on ebay (unfortunately). I never had any warranty issues at all on this system.

Benefits:
- This thing is STURDY... it uses a Panavise to lock it down to the counter/table top... you will literally be able to lift your table up holding nothing but your Pro! You will not have the same issues as the Apex where it will slide around... the Pro won't do this, it is locked in. (you can do an "upgrade" and actually convert your WE into using a panavise as well).
- You can purchase a scissor attachment which works awesomely.
- Changing stones out is a little easier.
- This uses EP's patented ramp system which slows the wear down on your stones and uses the whole stone to sharpen vs. just the middle of the stone like the Apex.
- I believe (if I am not mistaken) the degrees goes a little lower than the Apex... not sure, you will have to check on this.

Cons:
- There aren't any really... other than that it is a hand/manual system that does take a while to use over the electric systems (i.e. belt sander & paper wheels). I would definitely recommend getting a stop collar (which will give you precision, around $8-10) for the EP. An angle cube is great too (around $30).


Ok, now that that is done I want to say one last thing... don't get too carried away with the "high grit" stones unless you have a specific purpose (i.e. straight razors and hair shears). These will create a mirror edge, but it is NOT practical for EDC (every day carry) purposes (i.e. cutting rope, plastic, cloth, etc.). A highly polished edge has a very specific purpose... to push cut. A toothier edge is much more efficient at most purposes we would use them for because it has, in essence, micro serrations that will really "bite" into whatever you are cutting. That being said, one of my favorite edges is the 220 grit water stone on the EP and the 400 grit diamond stone on the WE. These will both still shave the hair right off of your arm but really bite into whatever you are cutting big time.

 

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 19:27

Good read on both systems.  Couple of comments.  The stop collar is a VERY good tool.  You may not need to buy one. I already had one in my drill bit sets.  It's a 5/16" collar.  If you don't have one get one though.  The collar trick is very very very close to perfect but not quite perfect.  To understand why you need a very high understanding of math and geometry.  There is a report on another forum that explains why it's off a TINY bit.  If I remember correctly it's off about .0088 degrees. I know, it's almost laughable.  The thing is I was already aware of the inaccuracy.  I just didn't know why.  I figured it was my human error or something.  You may not be able to picture this until you use a system that controls the angle so well.  I'll try to explain.  To start a new edge (re-profile) an edge on the EP you want to  establish the angle with your coarsest stone.  After that the idea is to just smooth (remove scratches) on the bevel as well as smooth the edge to your desired toothiness or smoothness.  Le's say the angle is a perfect 15 degrees after a 500 grit stone.  Then you replace it with a 1k grit stone but the angle is off by 1/10th a degree making the new angle on the EP 15.1 degrees.  The 1k stone will remove enough steel in one stroke that when you look at the bevel it will look like you have set the 1k stone accurately by using the collar.  What has actually happened is the 1k stone removed enough steel to create a whole new angle ON THE EDGE.  This is perfectly fine and if you want to leave the edge alone after the 1k stone all is well.  BUT, if you continue up through the grits and you get to 4k  (or so)  and up these stones won't remove enough steel to create a whole new edge angle on the knife.  What you will see is the scratch pattern from a 2k stone for example and then a seperate scratch pattern left by the 4k stone AT THE TOP OF THE BEVEL.  So then a very small micro adjustment is required.  THis is one of those things that most tools have.  Slight inaccuracies that don't matter unless you want the best possible performance..  And in this case it is only evident with the higher grit stones.  Like the above poster said they aren't necessary for most EDC pocket knives.  But for higher end kitchen cutlery I understand some chefs have the super smooth edges on some knives for certain reasons.  All I understand about that is a toothy edge is better for a tomato to initially "saw" through the skin.  After that it doesn't really matter I guess.

Jack

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 19:37

Geez.  That was a comment???  I talk (type) too much.  Next comment:  The EP will go down to10 degrees per side or maybe a bit less.  But if you NEED a lower angle you can put something under the spine of the knife blade.  Raising the spine lowers the angle the stone hits the edge.  No way to measure it with geometry that I knos of.  I suppose I could determine the new blade table angle degree with whatever I put under the spine and using the angle cube determine the new angle of 7 or 8 degrees or whatever.  The angle cube is a very nice accessory to the EP.  I wanted one for a while but didn't spend the money for it until I found out I could also set angles on my circular saw.  I am going to end this post.  I'm on my tablet now and if I hit enter to form a new paragraph it screws something up.  I type and the cursor jumps back in front of it and I type the rest of the word.  This only happens on my tablet on this forum.  No idea why this happens.  Next comment "scissors" in the next post.  :)

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 19:45

Scissors on the EP Apex is possible although not ideal.  I use a pair of vise grips to clamp the scissor blade to the front of the EP blade table.  You need to protect the blade from scratches and also don't use enough pressure to crack the plastic the EP Apex is made of.  I have a picture of this but can't post it now.  Just hold a scissor blade against the front of the EP with the inside edge facing away from you.  I've never seen the Pro  and the scissor attachment.  However I'm positive it's much better.  FOr nice sheers and scissors I doubt if the Apex rig is a good idea.  It takes care of my Wal Mart scissors ok. :)

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 19:54

Manx, I don't know what you expected when asking about these two systems.  Here's the deal as I see it.  If someone wants a usably sharp pocket knife and kitchen knives this is easily achieved with one or two bench stones and a bit of practice.  I lived owning two stones until about 4 years ago.  A medium and fine grit Arkansas stone but I only used the medium.  The fine grit stone only dulled the edge.  Now, let me say that more accurately.  I didn't really know what I was doing.  But I could always shave my arm hair very easily using only the medium stone.  My problem was angle control.  The EP and WE remove this issue by about 99%.  So, an EP and two stones would do for almost anyone not actually interested in knives or sharpening as a hobby or livelihood.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 19:59

A bit more on stone selection (for the future).  The last time I talked to Ben Dale on the phone or emailed him he was against diamond stones in the worst  way except for ceramic blades.  It's true about ceramic blades, you need diamond stones.  But there are diamond stones that do a great job and last a long time for steel blades.  There are options for diamond stones for the EP also.  Atoma makes stones in 4 grits for the EP.  DOn't worry, they are only $75 each. :)  But if anyone is into high level sharpening this is not surprising at all.  They are HIGH quality stones.  They are available on chefknivestogo.com and maybe elsewhere.

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 20:11

There is one thing I really dislike about the EP.  When using stones that don't absorb water well it's really messy.  It's messy to the point that unless I pay close attention swarf can get into the pivot of folding knives.  This is not an issue that would even come close to making me stop using the EP.  What I always do if the pivot gets wet is drip some dish soap inside the handle/pivot area and work it in like oil.  Then I use warm tap water to wash dirt and soap out.  Then I use a hair drier to dry excess moisture and oil the pivot.  Just like a normal pocket knife bath. :)  In fact I probably could do this more often to my EDC knives and they would be happier. :)

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on December 18, 2013 at 20:23

One final thing (I hope).  I bet you hope so too. :)  While using the EP for about 4 years I have also been working on free hand sharpening skill.  BTW, I'm retired, don't work and have more time on my hands than should be legal.  But, we do get to keep our grandson (4 in Jan.) 4 days a week.  So the only time I CAN'T sharpen is when he is close by.  He's still young enough that he wants to help.  Have you noticed little kids all want to help.  Then when they are old enough to be of use they are no where to be found. :)  Of course we were not like that when we were young. :)  Anyway, the satisfaction from free hand sharpening is cool.  I'd say now my most common routine (if I had one) would be to use the EP when the edge needs quite a bit of work.  But for a quick touch up I use bench stones and I can get the edge just as sharp either way.  The learning curve is much less with the EP though.  Oh yeah, CKTG (Chefknivestogo.com) has a spring for $2 to make stone changes quicker on the EP Apex.  It is possible to drop the stone out of the holders when using the spring but you woule not be using the EP properly.  You would be going too fast and/or too hard.  But that is why Ben opted to not use the spring on the Apex model.

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