Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael D. on July 26, 2016 at 10:45

I must admit I'm getting to the point where knives are just names stamped on them. There really is no provenance or history behind them. As a matter of fact it becomes, at best, a murky field. Nobody really knows about the knives but, viola, they appear on the market.

Traditional patterns are like tchotchkes (choch-keys; Yiddish for trinkets). You collect them because they're "cute".

That's not good for new collectors who like traditional patterns. They costs of old name brands are becoming prohibitive.

I know three people, half my age, who consider themselves collectors. But their idea of "collector" is far different from anything we believe in. Their views:

1.) Practical. The knife is a unique tool for usage only

2.) The more knives the better.

3.) An assisted opener is the only type worth considering. They're willing to pay $$$.

4.) They're proud of their "collection" - they talk about it and show it.

5.) Their collection is used to destruction via EDC rotation. They have regrets but move on to the next offering. They're highly critical of their own actions or else criticize the knife's mechanical failure.

6.) They are not adverse to re-profiling blades, adjusting tensions, changing/removing handle parts

7.) They shy away from knife forums or printed media but are engrossed with You Tube how-to videos

So that's what I see as the knife collector of today. I find myself slowly slipping into this mode sometimes.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on July 26, 2016 at 11:26

Michael,

I see this when I am at shows and even see it in the membership.  For many years we have talked about the evolution of a modern knife collector.  It seems I can identify three stages.

stage 1)  I only need a couple of knives, it is just a tool I use daily.

stage 2) Hmm, seems I have several knives now and I find I like collecting and using the different ones

stage 3) Now that I know what I like...I like it alot and I will spend $$$ for just that type or brand

We even see a few step to stage 4 which is adding traditional patterns to the I like it list

 What continues to amaze me is the number that will live on YOUTube but dont step into the forums to actually discuss them.  They will go to a knife show in groups and they are knowledgeable, know what they like and love to talk about their chosen style or brand.

So what makes them uninterested in talking to similar types online?

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on July 26, 2016 at 18:48

As a collector of old stampings .. ARGH.

.
When I speak of MARBLE's .. I'm speaking of the ones made by Webster L. Marble ..NOT.. the product made by the half dozen companies who've attained the rights to the name since then. Many "collectors" these days do not even know the roots of the names used in the stampings.

.

I hear new collectors speaking quite proudly of their "vintage" .. and then they quote a year in the 1970's or 80's. I personally am quite proud of the Waterville Cutlery Company knives I have .. that are not all in perfect shape ..BUT... Waterville Cutlery Company was in business from 1843 to 1913. At the very least .. they are 103 years old.

...or...

The Hatch Cutlery Co. Buchanan Mich (stamping only used for 2 years .. 1898 & 1899).

.

I know .. I'm in a minority.

.

!!! .. ARGH .. !!!
.

And yes .. the amount of money the new collector is willing to spend on .. well .. I'd call it "features" over quality.

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Permalink Reply by Michael D. on July 27, 2016 at 7:39

The younger folks of today are MORE interested in knife collecting than we ever were.

But the info D ale just posted is of no interest to them. It means nothing. They have no sense of history and if you show them something old, something traditional, something "beautiful" (in our eyes) they only are concerned with its value. They look at it like they would a stock or mutual fund offering. What are the factors that make it worth this or that. They're curious but won't invest.

Another thing new collectors are extremely knowledgeable about are laws. They know them like a lawyer. They're more interested in knife rights and they do follow knife rights organizations but do it directly through the internet and not through forums. Also if they Google a knife and model and it brings them to a forum, they'll read it but won't join the forum.

Why is that? The banter back and forth that we enjoy is just so much bulls@@t to them. They'll go on a knife manufacturer's website sooner than a knife forum.

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Permalink Reply by Michael D. on July 27, 2016 at 7:58

You'll notice that there is a trend on our forum. Members join only to find out how to valuate knives or they started collecting at one point but need money for something else. So VALUATION and DISPOSAL are their knife interests.

And what do we tell they? Something like "Beautiful knife you pictured but it's actually a no name knife with a famous name stamped on it like COLT for example." Really ain't worth anything............unless you find another collector......and the only real place for that is eBay...............and that takes too much time.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on July 27, 2016 at 8:32

Michael,

I agree we do have a percentage of members that join to find the value and we try to get them to the right person to get them the correct info whether it be valuable or not.  I have side conversations with many of them and try to get them to an understanding of what they have and where best to see its potential and yes, sometimes that is ebay.

But we also have a good many members that join for the discussions.  The issue I am seeing now is that there are 2 groups of members.  A section that joins for the live chat, and these are more and more the younger and the less traditionalist.  They post pics but generally only engage in chat.

Then there are those that never chat and only follow the discussions.  I tend to try to keep these moving and appreciate the history.  I pray we never lose that but I have seen enough young traditional collectors to know it will survive and we will always promote that.

My question was geared toward, how do we engage them all within the discussions but I think you have hit the nail on the head.  They like the instant discussion, not following one.  I am ok with that.  Now my challenge becomes bringing those manufactures that are here with us to the chat more often (add more manufactures) and at a scheduled time where the folks can speak directly with them and those that collect or like that knife!

Thank you !  Talking this through was good for us

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Permalink Reply by J.J. Smith III on July 27, 2016 at 9:02

Michael D. said:

The younger folks of today are MORE interested in knife collecting than we ever were.

In my younger days, I had no interest in collecting. Back then,the only knives I knew about were the Barlow Knives, that you could find on the checkout counter at the hardware stores. There were also some stockman's here and there, along with the obligatory large frame lockback that were always referred to as "Bucks", regardless of who made it.
My knives were tools, to be used. My collecting came much later.
I can only hope that the younger folk will eventually come to appreciate the traditional pattern knife. (And I have a daughter that falls into this category.)

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on July 27, 2016 at 11:28

Yes you do JJ and we have watched her go from fantasy knives to non traditional and even a use (carving and whittlin) for the traditionals.  She is what I like to call multi generational in her collecting...I hope to see more like her but then she has an excellent role model in her collecting.

We are also watching traditional collectors reach out to new brands and styles, the flippers are very popular right now.  Brad T is an excellent example of that.

Our mission here has always been to celebrate the hobby with anyone collecting any type of knife, we will always continue that tradition.  My personal mission is to bring knife collecting forward, to reach across every generation.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Scheuerman (Manx) on July 27, 2016 at 13:24

See...part of the issue with the gulf between "old collectors" and "new collectors" is the fact neither one seems to acknowledge the other. "Oh..that is a nice picture" seems to be about the only recognition of someone else's likes and passions. Hearing the comments about value and age ascribed mainly to the "younger" collectors is disheartening. I have seen many of the Old Guard place value on their traditionals and brag about vintage knives almost as much as the young pups. A big part of it is that knives were very common and practical back in the day. For the most part, they were not made to collect, they were made to use. They were in the pockets of 8yr olds in school. Everyone had one and it was a tool. Now, companies are going crazy making 15 of the same version of a knife just to create a collector base from which comes a staggering amount of money. They are oft times shunned in public and are now illegal in many forms across the world. I believe the way knives are treated as you grow up makes a huge difference in how you approach collecting.

Knives then were a basic tool that you learned to use and respect. They were made of a handful of steels and usually came out only in that style. You made a mistake with it and you cut yourself. Your fault, your consequence. We learned respect for our tools because if we didn't, it was our own fault and we were the ones who got hurt. Lesson learned.

Knives now are much more. Tool, weapon, fashion accessory, prestige symbol, bragging rights, collector item. Companies come and go, steels are almost as prolific as handle colours. Stag handles are almost impossible to find as well as bone/ivory. They are safer with the wide variety of locking mechanisms and carry options. And now a variety of new patterns as well. It is called Evolution.

I myself am not a huge fan of Traditional knife patterns. I am not much for anything that doesn't lock. I will never use a spey blade for its intended use. I think a Wharncliffe style blade is one of the ugliest things on earth and  closed barlow looks like a small piece of poop someone has in their pocket. HOWEVER...I respect that those styles and shapes gave us the knives we have today. I acknowledge the fact that these knives had and have their uses and advantages. They are the living history of what our knives are becoming today. What I find disturbing is that the Good 'ol Boys refuse to see the beauty of many of the newer knives and styles because if it ain't granpappy's knife, it is crap. Just the same as I see the young pups hating on the Traditionals simply because they are old or only are available in one type of steel. Having a preference is wonderful...but hating all others just because is what is dividing our community.

I get looked down upon because I "only" have 90-100 knives. I get snubbed because I dare to have artistic knives in my collection that are not practical or usable. I get laughed at for having production knives and not customs. I am snorted at because I like my knife that was made in Asia. I get called names because to me...a USA made knife is just as foreign to me as a Japanese made knife.

And you know...I just don't care.

But these kinds of attitudes from both sides of the fence are what is harming our community. They drive people away from their passions and impact our hobby in a negative manner.

It is difficult to like new styles here when 80% of the member base is all about Traditionals. You folks can trade tales of your older knives and have great conversations and trade pics of granpa's knife. For those of us into the newer styles, we don't have the numbers or the amount of folks to feel a part of the whole community. We seem to be a splinter cell at best that is tolerated. A Case conversation can run for hours, but a Spyderco or Kershaw conversation won't last more than 2min.

We need more folks on both sides to show interest in the other side of things. We all need to learn more about the styles we don't focus on all the time. All knives have something to contribute to our community. All styles have their purposes, strengths and weaknesses. And all collectors and users matter. Elitism is just as harmful here as it is in any other walk of life. Let's all take steps to show that all knives matter!

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on July 27, 2016 at 13:49

Manx,

Never under estimate your value to this or any community!  This is exactly why I said WE need to reach out more

All styles have their purposes, strengths and weaknesses. And all collectors and users matter. Elitism is just as harmful here as it is in any other walk of life. Let's all take steps to show that all knives matter!

Whether Colt lives on or not, iKC will always have this passion for all knives and their owners

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In MemoriamPermalink Reply by D ale on July 28, 2016 at 16:08

Steve is absolutely correct that little or no one attaches significance to the content of what I posted.

I noted quite some time ago the new members that appeared to have joined for the sole purpose of obtaining a value for a knife they had .. perhaps .. so they could then realistically value it when they listed it on e-bay. My approach was either along the lines of “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” i.e. it is worth exactly what another is willing to pay for it ..or.. avoiding responding completely. YES .. VALUATION and DISPOSAL is one of their knife interests. After obtaining their desired valuation .. we never hear from them again.

There certainly exists an “instant gratification” mindset within some of the millennial crowd. I doubt that will change.

It is tough (for me) to respond honestly to a posted pic of a common* knife .. with-out being rude & impolite .. without a generic response like “Sweet Knife” ..or.. “Nice Knife” ..or.. some other quite disingenuous response. Stating what I feel as truthful would come off as rude, crude, & quite impolite. Certainly .. alienating.

All that being said … the basic question remains ... what can we do to engage more new members into activity in our community ???

My thoughts … … …

When welcoming a new member .. read their personal profile & tailor a welcome response to what you find there. i.e. I noted that new member XYZ listed biking under “Other Hobbies” .. I also noted the gentleman was in his 70's ..so.. along with the standard “Welcome to iKC, XYZ” .. I added the query "Are you still actively riding". With new member ZYXW .. I noted a specific cutlery interest in the form of a stated brand ..so.. along with the standard welcome .. I added the statement “We've a group you might be interested in" & included the link to “brand” collectors. To the point .. take the time to read a new member's Profile Information & include in your standard welcome some response personalized toward points the new member felt important enough to include within their “Profile Information”.

We all have strengths & weaknesses in the field of cutlery ..&.. we've all a good idea of what they are.

Use them .. in a positive manner. e.g. when a pic is posted of a knife that has a certain stamping .. which in this day & age has been through 15~20 different ownerships or licensing agreements. I could post a bit of history of the stamping ..perhaps.. extending from its origin to its current use. Others could respond with information relative to their specific strengths. Never condescending .. always informing. Do the salesman thing .. simply fail to mention the negative things that may come to mind & express the positive things that one has knowledge of.

Offer praise .. never criticism.

Now .. I'm not saying this will be easy. I am guilty of elitism. I spent many many hours, days, months, years reading every source of information I could gain access to to obtain the information I have. Yup .. BUT .. gotta get past that !!! If we want to engage new members .. we have to do just that .. ENGAGE THEM !!!

And how better to do that than to make them feel good about their contribution (comment/pic/post/whatever) that one is responding too. Really !!!

Ok .. I've added some suggestions .. I genuinely hope it grows the discussion .. let's hear some further input !!!

* common .. I define a common knife as one produced by the thousands & sold @ very affordable cost.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on July 28, 2016 at 19:33

If we want to engage new members .. we have to do just that .. ENGAGE THEM !!!

That is certainly the ultimate key!!

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