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Scottish Scouts told to be prepared for jail over knives
From the article: FOR more than a century its young recruits have been urged to “be prepared”. But now Scouts have been told they can expect to be arrested if they are found carrying a knife, even on a campsite. Read the entire article here: http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scou...ives-1-2936476
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Steve Scheuerman (Manx) on
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Just another step in teaching people to fear a tool instead of learning to respect it.
Soon, we'll be cutting a steak with a spoon.
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FeaturedPermalink Reply by Craig Henry on -
"FOR more than a century its young recruits have been urged to “be prepared”. But now Scouts have been told they can expect to be arrested if they are found carrying a knife, even on a campsite."
That's just nuts!
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Permalink Reply by Jan Carter on
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Steve,
You are right. If we stop teaching respect and use of a tool we risk raising generations that fear the unknown as a weapon
I can not stress enough that Knife Rights is an organization that is willing to take on the "silly/needless/mindless" (my own words) rulings and preserve our right to have tools and collectibles that we so love
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Permalink Reply by Billy Oneale on
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It amazes me that people have lost common sense. Whatever happened to personal responsibility for your actions.
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Noot on
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Overhyped overhyped.
The handbook basically warns them to keep within the law. When camping it's perfectly acceptable in the UK to carry a fixed blade or a locking blade.
When not a 3" slipjoint is still perfectly legal.
Although many people do not like this the law seems pretty reasonable to me.
Especially considering the fact that the amount of stabbings in the UK are astonishingly high compared to other countries around it.
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Permalink Reply by Chuck Parham on
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This is absolutely ludicrous!!!!! Some boys get their first knife when they become a Scout. Someone has to get their head out of their A$$. A Scout without a knife?? Unheard of !! I remember having my Scout knife clipped to my belt and a sheath knife always at my side when hiking or camping. I was the troop cook and was always using a knife. I'm just wondering how many Scouts in the UK have been arrested for breaking this law. I wouldn't be able to sleep if I were a cop and arrested a Scout for this!!
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I must respectfully disagree with the "overhyped" statement. When you are prepared to arrest/convict children for somethiing like this is absurd. One of the few places/groups that teach usage and respect of knives to kids has now been, in effect, targetted by law enforcement. And I do mean targetted. How many Scout parents will now forbid their kids from owning a knife and prevent them from learning how to use them simply out of fear that their child will be charged, or out of ignorance of the laws resulting in a general "ban" on knives for their kids? Simply by focusing this article on the Scouts is going to result in repercussions throughout the Scouting/Cub Scouting/Beavers/Guides organisations. Lets see how much blood is spilt trying to make a lean-to with a non-locking little folding knife.Or do they now stop teaching survival techniques that requires tools having blades of more than 3 inches.When will the cutting edge of an axe fall into that category? Where does it stop? If we keep restricting and banning things that could possibly be abused or used as a weapon against property or people, then we set ourselves up for a pretty sterile and ridiculous future for ourselves and our kids. "Here Rover!! Go fetch the feather!! Good boy." Egads. As if round lawn darts weren't bad enough...
My opinion...not yours. :)
u
Alexander Noot said:Overhyped overhyped.
The handbook basically warns them to keep within the law. When camping it's perfectly acceptable in the 7K to carry a fixed blade or a locking blade.
When not a 3" slipjoint is still perfectly legal.
Although many people do not like this the law seems pretty reasonable to me.
Especially considering the fact that the amount of stabbings in the UK are astonishingly high compared to other countries around it.
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Read my comment again, read the article again, read UK law again. Fixed blades are perfectly legal when constructing a "Lean to"
Locking blades are perfectly legal when doing this as well.
It's not a ban on knives for their kids. It's a desperate attempt to bring down the amount of stabbings that happen in the UK. Don't tell me how it is over there. I've lived in Scotland for 2 years in my early twenties and I was there as recently as last week.
It's not a police state, there's no one claiming that you can't have the right tools for the right job. The scouting organisations are merely educating the kids as to what the local laws are.
That's why I'm saying it's overhyped. This is nothing new, and it's not by FAR as unreasonable as it might seem from a distance.
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I am simply commenting on the article, and offering my opinion based on what is contained therein.
“Knives should be appropriate to the activity and should never be an illegal type, such as a lock knife (in which the blade stays open). Our advice to members is: be trained, be safe and observe the law.”
Sorry, to me, that sounded like it was illegal to carry a locking blade.
When I spoke of a general ban of knives for kids, I was referring to the fact that many parents, out of overcautious nature or ignorance of present laws, will just ban their children from having knives, rather than risk arrest and/or conviction. I did not mean to imply a legal ban of knives for children. And I have no intention of telling you "how it is over there" or anywhere else. :) That was never my point. Again, sorry for any confusion.
“However, legally you’re not allowed to carry a knife in a public place without lawful authority or a reasonable excuse.”
The Scout motto is "Be Prepared". I highly doubt a law enforcement officer is going to accept that as a valid reason to carry a knife of any kind. However, I could be wrong. Is "just in case I need one" a reasonable excuse to carry a knife? I carry a knife not because I wake up and can plan every usage of it for the day, but to have a tool with me in case I need it. If that is not a reasonable excuse, then it sure sounds to me like someone is saying I can't carry the right tool for the job. Again, this is my interpretation of the statements in the article, not a comment on current laws, which may or may not be the same.
Part of what I said was meant to reflect on not *what is*, but on *where will it end*.
As for UK Law, well...as I said, I commented on the article, and did no research into that aspect, nor did I mean imply any knowledge of it.
Sorry for any misconceptions or confusion. :) Take care...
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Actually you'll see in the sentence you quoted
“However, legally you’re not allowed to carry a knife in a public place without lawful authority or a reasonable excuse.”
Now. I know that "just because I like to be prepared" isn't a considered a reasonable excuse. And yes, that might be wrong. But you're not thinking about this the way someone from there is. The UK has a problem as big with stabbings as the US does with shootings in some places. Can you blame them for wanting to limit that?
Also, if the scouts are taught the proper technique, a 3" non locking blade can be used just fine in a survival situation. Sure it might not be as easy as with a 4"- 10" fixed blade to build a lean to. But it's not MEANT to be easy is it? It's meant for SURVIVAL situations. Not comfort situations.
Now do I agree with the limiting of blades? Not really. But do I understand it? Sure I do. Offcourse overprotective parents will limit their kids. But they do that EVERYWHERE. No matter what the law is. Overprotective people are OVERprotective. Which means they're not reasoning but reacting in an emotional manner.
I even know of a housemother (friends of ours) who doesn't WANT any of her kitchen knives to be sharp for fear of cutting herself. Is that logical? No offcourse not. But it IS something that's happening.
The article itself (in a roundabout way) states UK law perfectly. Nothing locking over 3" and only non locking under that size if you don't have a good excuse. This is nothing new. That law has been in place for (I think) over 5 years now.
Only reason this article was written is (I suspect) because it's a slow news day and newspapers like to create hype where there is none. They sell more papers that way.
That's why I said overhyped. Because
- It's not news
- It's done by a newspaper who sell more news when they overhype things
- most of the people here reacting know very little about UK culture (or Scottish culture for that matter)
Like I said I lived in Scotland for a while. Me and a colleague were attacked at a busstation once by 3 kids because (and I quote from the kid attacking us at the time after we'd roughed them up a little)
"I'm sorry man, but I'm from Glasgow, and where I'm from you just don't look at people like that"
And I'll tell you, I'm pretty damn glad one of those kids didn't pull out a 3"+ knife at the time (or a 3"- knife for that matter) because I might have not been sitting here today or my colleague might not be working in the US as a dental specialist and father of 3 kids.
So maybe before we judge on what is "disgusting" and "insane" and "police state" in another country we maybe try and make things a little better in our own first.
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Alexander I understand, I honestly do. We feel the same way about the guns laws being proposed here as we do about these laws. I think what everyone is saying is
Dont take our right to carry away, address the people that are behind those types of attacks. Different countries do seem to think differently. Here we tend to think that an inanimate object never hurt anyone and criminals dont obey laws
I think that is the heart of why we feel the way we do
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Permalink Reply by J.J. Smith III on
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"The UK has a problem as big with stabbings as the US does with shootings in some places. Can you blame them for wanting to limit that?"
Chicago Illinois has some of the toughest gun control laws in America. While the "law abiding" members of society go unarmed, the criminal element doesn't follow the law.
Here are some "Gun" stats for Chicago...
NUMBER OF HOMICIDES IN CHICAGO IN 2011
441
NUMBER OF HOMICIDES IN CHICAGO IN 2012
535NUMBER OF HOMICIDES IN CHICAGO AS OF May 15, 2013
126
NUMBER OF PEOPLE SHOT IN CHICAGO IN 20112,217
NUMBER OF PEOPLE SHOT IN CHICAGO IN 2012
2,670NUMBER OF PEOPLE SHOT IN CHICAGO AS OF May 2, 2013
593
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