Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on September 22, 2013 at 14:54

Yes, I see the edge there Thomas

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 22, 2013 at 16:29

Thomas,  that is a very nice looking edge.  Each bevel is flat and even.  The scratch pattern is obvious and the coarser grit will leave the edge toothy just like you wanted.  Very nice job.  I'm wondering how you got the difference in the two angles to be so close.  I've never heard of anyone using two different angles on an edge so close together.  I can't imagine how it is possible to get two angles on the same side of an edge 1/100th of a degree different.  Maybe I misunderstood what you said.  Do you use a machine to control the angles?  Just curious.  Either way it's a very nice looking edge.

Jack

Permalink Reply by Thomas Lofvenmark on September 22, 2013 at 18:45

Jack, two angles so close, is of no use at all on a knife edge, at least in my mind. It is just interesting to be exact and to control the angle as fine as possible. 0,01 part of 1 degrees difference is of no use – but – 0,1 part of 1 degree can be useful – (and higher angles of cause).

For example, if I like to make 2-3 facets on a knife blade (for decoration) it is necessary to be able to control the angle because I need to go between those facets after I have change to a finer sharpener – and I must hit the surface perfect in the correct angle, if I do not hit the facets correct I destroy the facet and the straight lines between them. That is why I am interested to control the angle down to this level, and, perhaps, lower then this.

I use a sharpening tool to do this. It is impossible to do by freehand. I have a standing screw and a nut – and 28 cm distance between the screw and the cutting edge. I turn the nut 1 seventh part of 1 full turn – and that gives me 1 hundred part of 1 degree on the edge 28 cm away from the nut. I move the sharpener by hand – the blade is locked in position and cannot move – and the sharpening angle is also locked in the same tool. I simply use the law of physics. So, no machine, just a hand made tool - and my own hands – and only the weight of the sharpener.

This picture shows five facets on a Mora knife edge. The facets is 1 mm wide (that was mo goal anyway), there is 0,75 degrees between the facets and there is a perfect line between the facets from the handle, thru the belly out to the tip off the blade.( Those facets was made just to se if it was possible to do them, they have no purpose at all – but I learn from it – I can make 1, 2, 3 facets on the backend of the edge for decoration – and if I use the scratches diagonal in different directions, it is really decorative – in my mind and in my taste.

Thomas

Attachments:

• Facet grinding with EdgePal Chef.jpg, 168 KB

Permalink Reply by Steve Hanner on September 22, 2013 at 19:43

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 23, 2013 at 6:49

Another great edge and for that matter, a great picture.  Now I want a picture of your sharpening device.  It sounds to me like you need to patent this thing.  The accuracy you are getting is as good as I have seen and better than most produced by sharpening devices or systems.  When I said "machine" I was actually referring to a sharpening system like an Edge Pro, Wicked Edge or other device.  I wasn't thinking a machine using electricity or anything like that.  I use the Edge Pro sharpener and did something like what you are doing here except not even close to the accuracy you are achieving.  The Edge Pro creates flat bevels and most of the time 2 bevels are used.  One right on the edge and a second (lower angle) bevel just above that.  I wanted a convex edge on a knife about 4 years ago.  To create this using the Edge Pro I started with an edge angle of 20 degees.  The setting on the Edge Pro of 20 degrees is for one side.  It produces an edge angle of 40 degrees inclusive (20 deg. on each side).  So after the initial edge bevel I lowered the Edge Pro setting to 18 degrees per side.  This created a second bevel angle similar to yours.  Mine was a full 2 degree different though.  Then I used a 16 degree setting then a 14 degree setting.  This created bevels similar to what you have pictured but with much greater difference between the changes (2 full degrees).  Then I used a soft leather strop with 28 micron diamond paste to round off the "corners" at each angle change.  This created a smooth rounded edge bevel on each side.  But, even thought the EP can be set to any angle because of it's design it's hard to get it set to angles with a +/- or .01 degrees.  I have an "angle cube" (digital level/bevel  guage) that is used to set an angle of "x" degrees compared to another surface "y" when  "y" is set to zero.  It measures angles to the level of 1/100th degree (0.01 degrees) but actually getting the EP adjusted and locked in place with this accuracy is very difficult.    Your using a screw in a nut to create angles of different values seem ingenious to me.  A simple change like that to a system like the Edge Pro would be revolutionary.  Not only that, it would be something that idiots like me would value (and pay for) on a sharpening system.  I don't know how many of these higher cost sharpening systems are sold but they are still being produced and sold.  Evidently enough are being sold to keep them in business I guess.   I'm going to do some thinking about doing something like this to my EP.  Of course as you  have mentioned this level of accuracy is of no practical use when it comes to making a knife a better tool for normal cutting tasks.  Especially for pocket knives which seldom have specific uses.  My pocket knife may open a letter or cut a radiator hose.  This is why I like to carry two (or more) knifes. :)

I congratulate you on the angle accuracy you are getting and would love to see a picture (or video) of your creation.  I used the word patent before.  This could be a serious issue regarding the mass production of a tool or someone else doing it with your idea.  Having said that, I'd love to see a picture (or video) of this setup you have.

Jack

Permalink Reply by Thomas Lofvenmark on September 23, 2013 at 14:13

Jack, thanks for your kind words.

I am retired and I innovate and construct sharpening tools as a hobby. I make my tools by hand, they are not massproduced, and also I sign them by hand with my name.

My most advanced tool is named Chef. I use Chef to make those small angles in the photos. That is the standard precision of Chef.

Chef have a built in protractor, is adjustble for different blade width and have a fixed distance, 28 cm, between the cutting edge and the pivot point.

Chef sharpens both flat and convex edges. Convex edges in any wanted convex sphere and with wanted degrees on the convex cutting edge. That means, for example, that if I like to have an edge with 3 degree convex sphere and 13 degree edge (26 degree total edge) I adjust Chef to this - and I get it on the edge. Those adjustments take only seconds to do. Chef is very user friendly.

The grinding tables have strong magnets that holds the blade in a fixed position = the blade cannnot move during the sharpening process.

Chef can sharpen both long and small blades. 25 cm long blades get a 0,2 degree angle change in both ends of the blade compare to the middle of the blade. If some one need to get 100% exatly the same edge angle all along the edge can I build Chef to do that.

I make Chef by hand. That means that I can custom build Chef and add functions my customers like to have. I work for the moment with some extra equipment as scissor sharpener, chisel sharpener, axe sharpener, and so on, to Chef.

Chefs sharpener holder is adjustble in length up to 6". That means that Chef can use, for example, DMT diasharp diamond sharpeners. In fact, the sharpener holder can clamp most sharpeners - and I have also a longer sharpener holder for up to 23 cm long sharpeners. (You can use the sharpeners you allready have with Chef).

I use Angle Cube to calibrate the protractor on Chef. AC is showing as best +/- 0,05 degrees.

I do not market my tools more then I have my homepage. I sell my tools mostly by recomendation from my customers.

When I get an order, I produce the tool. I have no stock. That is also why I can custom made my tools and build in different functions the customer want to have.

I have a "standard Chef" - and then can my customers choose different extra equipment as pivot, extra long sharpener holder, leather sharpener (strop). And soon also a scissor sharpener equipment for Chef, cisel attachment, and so on.

To se Chef is simple, just visit my homepage www.edgepal.com there is a short English side ( it will soon grow). There is also videos to se innthe Swedish side, go to: slipverktyg on the manue, then Chef, then Video Chef. There is 6 videos, a short English text describes what I am showing below each video.

More questions? :)

Thomas

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 23, 2013 at 16:34

Very nice selection of sharpening tools Thomas.  Extremely well built also.  My congratulations.  The Chef being able to hold numerous types and sizes of stones is a hugh plus.  I'll be looking it over closer on your site.  Do you put discussions like this on other forums?    Just curious.  I know a few forum friends who would love to see something like this.  I'll probably mention your site elsewhere.

Jack

Permalink Reply by Thomas Lofvenmark on September 23, 2013 at 18:10

Jack, thanks again for your kind words.

My tools give me contact with people all over the world and some of my customers have become my friends during the years - so, I enjoy my hobby :) it helps me to keep my brain and fingers working properly.

Yes, I have shown my tools on other forums - but I think that the members on some of those forums did not understod my type of English :)

I enjoy to discuss sharpening and edges. In the same time I am a "sharpening tool producer" so that is sometimes used against me - so I answer questions about my tools, and seldome talk about them my self. Sometimes I like to "show off" and shows, for example, that it is possible to control the edge angle down to 1/100 part of 1 degree.... ;)

I do not like to be locked to a factory or deliverer - so I do not lock my customers to me. that is why I construct the sharpener holder as I did. It can clamp in principle all sharpeners. If the sharpener is 6 millimeter thick, the protractor shows the correct degrees. If the sharpener is thicker or thinner I must calculate a little to compensate this differance on the protractor.

I use for example often Norton diamond sharpeners, they are 5 mm thick - so I use tape on its downside and "build them up" to 6 mm thickness, it works fine for me.

To be able to control angles as low as Chef do also means a lot of new knowledge. A white board pen leave a 0,02 mm thick ink on the edge. Permanent magic pen leave a 0,01 mm thick ink on the edge. Things like that is important when I evaluate edges :) white board pen ink is 100 % thicker! :)

Thomas

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 24, 2013 at 9:23

Thomas, I kept thinking I had heard of your sharpeners before so I did a bit of checking.  I actually emailed you about them about  a year and a half ago.  I'm really starting to worry about my memory.

One thing about your english or typing.  You use this "0,05" (comma).  I've been considering the comma a period which would look like "0.05".  Other than that your english seems understandable.  Actually it's better than some American's I know. lol

When you need to be aware of a thickness created by the ink of a marker we are talking about tolerances that I've only associated with NASA and places like that.  Do you deal with customers who use your tools for things other than sharpening a knife to cut the Christmas ham?  The accuracy of your tools is not NEEDED for the average pocket or kitchen knife to perform it's job.  I now remember your prices for the equipment as being high compared to other sharpening tools available  but not high considering the performance.  I know I've spent much more than you need to just to get a knife sharp.  Then again my pocket knives are sharper than 99% of the pocket knives you see people pull out of their pocket.  Not many people have a knife in their pocket that they could actually shave with.  I've gotten into sharpening (sorry, honing) my straight razor a friend was kind enough to give me.  I have to say I'm getting better at it and am getting great results.  I love sharpening and being able to get edges this sharp.  I don't have a NEED.  I just enjoy it.  Can you sharpen a straight razor on Chef?  In the case of a straight razor the angle is essential but so is an extremely LIGHT TOUCH between the stone/strop and the edge. If Chef can sharpen a straight razor to the point it is "shave ready" that's another claim that would be admired.

Here's a question based on the fact that I can document the angle I sharpen a knife with using my Edge Pro.  Let's say I use 18° per side.  The next time I sharpen the knife I can set the EP to 18 and it will match the bevel.  If the EP is not set perfectly it will create a new angle even if it is only 1/100° different.  This is such a small difference that it just "appears" that the EP was set to the same angle as before.  However, this is close enough for anyone sharpening their pocket knife or hunting knife or carving knife, etc.  My question is once you have established an edge like you have shown us can you then use the knife and then set the blade back on Chef and adjust the stone arm so it matches the angles already established?  Or would you be re-creating the entire edge?  My guess is that you would be creating a new set of bevels.  This would be because a human being doesn't have the ability to set the blade in exactly the same position as before or able to adjust the stone arm angle exactly as before.  But after they are set the Chef IS this accurate.  One advertising claim of sharpening systems is they can duplicate previously created angles.  I don't believe any are capable of doing this at the level of accuracy the Chef is able to achieve.  Did what I'm asking make sense?

I compliment you again on your Chef (and others).  There are several sharpening systems available that do a good job.  A very good job.  A GREAT job.  I haven't seen any that can match the level of accuracy Chef can.  Until now we have been talking about bevel angles.  This level of accuracy when applied to attaining a sharp edge is even more important because the sharpness of a cutting tool is more important than bevel angle or appearance.  Do you sharpen things and then test sharpness using tests like the Hanging Hair Test (HHT)?

Jack

Permalink Reply by Thomas Lofvenmark on September 24, 2013 at 15:21

Jack, you are correct, this level och precision is not necesarry on knife edges, but - when you use this precision, you will be amazed - and hooked....and probebly become a grinding nerd (as me) ;)

To be able to control the edge angle down to 1/100 part of 1 degree gives you the possibility to control edges down to that level, but not below that level. That also means that you can hit 0,25 degrees, or 0,5 degrees, exact - in 1/100 part of 1 degree.

We can of cause discuss how low we shall go. Is 1 degree an off? 0,5 degrees, 0,25 degrees?

You are in to scarry sharp edges, combine Chefs precision and your intrest of sharp edges - and you will come some steps forward in sharpness. The amazing thing with this precision is that you know what you are doing to the edge, that means that you can evaluate what you have done, this leads to more knowledge and understandning of both edges and sharpness.

You can use different sharpeners, different grits, make scratches in different directions, polish the edge, and so on - and evaluate exact what you have done. You can work Scientificly with egdes.

The problem is what I menchen before, hair has different quality and different thickness - and there is no good method to evaluate edges and compare sharpness. Your hair is thicker, or thinner, then my hair.
This means that you and I can not compare sharpness - but it means that you can compare sharpness between your edges if you test them with only your own hair (from the same part of your skull). Hair thickness varius a lot...

Blond hair varius from 17 to 51 micron.
Black hair varius from 64 to 100 micron
Brown hair vaius from 17 - 100 micron
Red hair varius from 17 - 100 micron

The differance between 17 and 100 micron is like a match and a pencil... Hair is alo more easy to whittle in when it is clean and wen you move the edge against the root of the hair - it is harder to whittle against the top...simply, we can not use hair to compare sharpness...

I understand better today why scientists try to find as small particles as possible, becouse they decide also the bigger things...

Yes, You can find the exact the same angle again with Chef, down to this level we are talkning about. You need permanent ink to find it... It is in fact easy. The blade is locked in position on the grinding table, that is necessarry.

I can, with the help of the nut, go from facet to facet and hit the facets surfaces perfect. To do this with high precision I ned a wider screw and a "pointer" that point down on the wider screws upper side who is diveded in to 7 parts. One Full turn is 7/100 parts of 1 degree. That gives me perfect control down to this level. The "standard nuts" have a mark on its upper side, but is not divided in to 7 parts and no pointer is inclouded in the standard Chef. They are extra equipment.

Is my tools expensive?! I think the price is very low :)
What do you compare with?

Lets see.. What can Chef do...

Sharpen flat edges in exact degrees with the help of a built in protractor.
Sharpen convex edges with wanted degrees on the cutting edge
Sharpen convex spheres in wanted degrees
Precsion adjusments of the sharpening angle down to 1/100 part of 1 degree
Blades are locked on the grinding tables with magnets
Adjustble for different blade width
Fixed distance, 28 cm, between the cutting edge and the pivot point
The knife neck support can be moved forwards and be angled
Adjustble sharpener holder clamps sharpeners up to 6". (EQ up to 23 cm)
Two grinding tabels is standard.
Stabile, weight about 2 kilo, 100% hand made, hand signed by the maker.

What can other sharpening tools do?

Nearly nothing about edges can be meassured. How many sharpening tools has a protractor? Most people do not know how many degrees their edges has. They are happy when the edge is sharp, any angle is ok :)

Why is it like that? I think it is like that becouse there is a lot of myths about sharpening and sharpening skills. No one, or very few, have tryed to use science, facts, measures, and so on. I know, and respect, people who work with different methods to measure how sharp an edge are. It is most needed if we like to go forward and develop sharpening.

Stone age peoples edges, 10.000 yeras ago, was sharper then the edges we use today. They started to grind their edges duller to reach better retention of their edges....we try to reach the sharpness stone age people use dor 10.000 yeras ago...

What have we learn in 10.000 years? :)

Thomas

Permalink Reply by Jack Haskins, Jr. on September 25, 2013 at 10:54

Larry, when I was thinking of your price being high I was considering ONLY the options for how much people want to spend on something to sharpen their knives with.  Not down to the performance level that Chef is capable of.  If someones needs the capability your tool can provide the price in my opinion is very good.  You can get an Edge Pro with a couple of stones for  about $170 I think.  But if you want a complete set of better quality stones you are easily looking at $400 with a few other accessories (angle cube, drill stop collar, etc.) that make using the EP easier. Chef comes with some of the extra things an EP can use as standard.  I don't know the prices you are charging now.  Right now I'm not in the market for or in a position to invest much more into sharpening.  There's no telling what the future holds though.  I have bought quite a few stones only to sell them to get money to buy another type to try.  Now I have what I like as far as bench stones go and stones for the EP also.  But I may decide to sell the EP to get money towards a Chef one day.  It seems the stones I have now can be used with your tool which is a great advantage to yours.

I appreciate you going into detail about your sharpening tools.  Also, I appreciate what you have done to create these things.  Great work.

Jack

Permalink Reply by Thomas Lofvenmark on September 25, 2013 at 13:03

Jack, I do not try to sell a Chef to you :) I just enjoy talk about my tools and what they can perform.

The standard Chef costs 475 USD today.

Thomas

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